People today spend more time inside than outside, and this causes many health problems.
Brian Richards is the founder of SaunaSpace – a company dedicated to bringing the world quality infrared sauna products. Based in Columbia, Missouri, SaunaSpace uses advanced, lean manufacturing practices that provide quality crafted goods at a fair price.
In this episode, you will hear about Brian’s personal quest for better health as he found himself struggling with insomnia, acne, and adrenal fatigue in his early twenties. While searching for answers, an alternative medicine doctor recommended Near Infrared (Nir) Sauna Therapy. Intrigue, Brian quickly discovered one problem: he couldn’t find a Nir sauna. Thus began his incredible personal journey from a sickly millennial to an amazingly healthy entrepreneur who is spreading Nir Sauna Therapy’s health benefits.
In this podcast, we cover:
- What Near Infrared (Nir) Sauna Therapy is all about—how it works and what it can do for your health
- The different types of light and how they help various ailments
- How Brian’s sauna business grew from a one-person DIY production to 38 employees working at an 18,000 square foot facility
- Why healing happens when you warm up your core body temperature
- Unique scientific properties of infrared light
- Where blue light comes from and why it is so detrimental to health
- What’s a Faraday cage? How can it improve your health?
What drew Brian into the sauna space?
Brian’s journey began with his own health issues: as a young man, he dealt with adrenal fatigue, lethargy, brain fog, and some weird acne that was continually breaking out on his torso, around the kidneys (you couldn’t see the acne on his face or limbs.) The cherry on top of all this was Brian’s mood swings – he was “irascible” or irritable way too much.
Things weren’t making sense to him, and allopathic solutions were not bringing any results. Brian’s final straw was when a dermatologist recommended Accutane, which is now off the market due to its association with liver cancer. Brian said, “no way, I’m not doing that,” and his determination to find a solution that made sense took hold.
Brian is grateful to have a mom who is a general practitioner physician. She began incorporating natural care into her practice about 25 years ago. While growing up in Montana, Brian noticed how his mom was doing some unconventional things with patients, which impacted his current outlook.
While researching for answers, Brian discovered something life-changing
Using a search engine one evening, Brian discovered a recent book by Dr. Lawrence Wilson called Sauna Therapy for Detoxification and Healing. This book introduced the incandescent sonic concept, also known as the electric incandescent light bath.
Through additional research, he discovered that incandescent light baths were invented in 1891 by Dr. Kellog. Over one hundred years ago, Dr. Kellog ran 50,000 invalid patients through his incandescent sauna program in Battle Creek, Michigan. Aftward, Kellog wrote a book on his studies called Light Therapeutics. You can read this book online (link below under Episode Resources). Brian found the book fascinating, and the saunas’ images back then looked like “gorgeous Victorian cabinets.)
Since he couldn’t find anyone offering an incandescent sauna, Brain built his own and experienced incredible healing–his insomnia went away after two sessions. The acne left. Nir sauna therapy, coupled with a paleo diet (getting rid of sugar and flour), transformed his life.
His business started modestly, producing 5 to 10 saunas per year. Today, his 18,00 square foot facility doesn’t have enough space as demand surges for incandescent saunas.
There is so much more incredible knowledge to find in this interview. For example, Brian’s business recently produced its own custom-made light bulb that has a higher near-infrared radiance. People are digging this unique approach to natural wellness. Be sure to check out this episode. The results could be life-changing!
Find out more about Sauna Space products: bioptimizers.com/saunaspace
LIGHT10 – 10% off
Instagram: @saunaspace (https://www.instagram.com/saunaspace/)
Facebook: @saunaspace (https://www.facebook.com/saunaspace/)
Twitter: @saunaspace (https://twitter.com/saunaspace)
Book by Dr. Lawrence Wilson: Sauna Therapy for Detoxification and Healing
Book by Dr. John Harvey Kellogg (FREE ACCESS): Light Therapeutics
Read The Episode Transcript:
Wade Lightheart: Good morning. Good afternoon. And good evening. It's Wade T. Lightheart from BiOptimizers with another edition of the Awesome Health show. Boy, you really want to listen to this one because we are interviewing the sauna space, founder, Brian Richards, and we're going to talk about near infrared sauna therapy. And some of the science back benefit has for wound healing, tissue, repair, immunity, and detoxification, and some recent studies about infectious disease. Getting into Brian's story. You know, he, he he's always been into optimal health and he created sauna space and incandescent sauna product line. We'll talk about that in a minute, in order to help others discovered the pathway to natural healing, which now includes the world's first Faraday cage sauna. Exactly. So of course, at the beginning of this journey, it was a, basically a do it yourself product, where he did everything from designing his logo to building his website. Wade Lightheart: And now he has a 35 person team operating an 18,000 square foot facility. And I've got to say for everyone, I've been using the sauna space sauna during the entire COVID and we got one here at the bio home. I love it. It's great. It's got a fair day cage, which you kind of step in there and I'm in the, like the electromagnetic super zone here in Venice beach, California. Oh yes. You have the latest version of the Faraday. Yeah. So go in there and you can, yeah, you can feel the difference when you're inside. You're like, okay, there's something going on here. And it's, it's wild. And I go down there, I love it. It's really neat. And the way the light sets up and how you can turn the lights, like more light panels, like it's a very unique sauna. So Hey Brian, welcome to the show. Brian Richards: Thanks Wayne. Thanks for having me look. So, so, so pleased to be here, you know, Wade Lightheart: I think sauna and light therapy and for those who don't know the awesome formula, the air, water, exercise, sunlight, optimizers, mental beliefs, education tests, and coaching, which is the foundation of our philosophy at BiOptimizers of how to achieve what we call biologically optimized health, the solar aspect, and the sun aspects and the unintended consequences of technological innovation, where now people are spending more time indoors instead of outdoors. This is a huge thing. And one of the reasons that we got Brian's sauna space device, because it addresses a lot of the issues of technological innovation. In other words, we're not outside as much, even though I'm in California, I'm here in front of my computer. Now I got this beautiful light therapy. I got EMF blocking it's. It's just awesome. So welcome to the show, Brian. Yeah. So, okay. So how does a guy go from, like, how did you get into the sauna space originally? What, what attracted you to saying, Hey, you know what I need to get into Sonic? Like, what was the journey like? I want to know the whole story. Yeah. Brian Richards: It's, it's a, it started out with my own health problems, which I think a lot of people can identify with. And, and the frustrations we have with frankly, a lot of the allopathic solutions offered out there, all the regular medical offerings I was really dissatisfied with. So I think I'm not unique in that regard. I searched, went out and started searching for my own solution, started out with search engines and my own research. Anyway, I was dealing with adrenal fatigue, weird acne, only around my kidneys in the back. So you couldn't see it on my face or my limbs. And then I ha I had like I said, what I concluded by self-diagnosis was adrenal fatigue. I was lethargic. I had brain fog. I had low energy. I was also irascible like, you know, kind of sometimes, you know, just irritable. Brian Richards: But also like irascible. Like I could, you know, you could get me lit up pretty quickly. Get me worked up quickly, even though I'm generally speaking. I've always been felt that I'm a healthy guy, more or less. But this stuff all started to really come to a head at the end of my college career. And I'm, I'm still young, but even then I was extremely young and it didn't make sense to me. So through my searching cause I, it really, when I got the slap in the face for me was when a dermatologist recommended Accutane, which now has been taken off the market. It because it's associated with liver cancer and it's a quite a thing. And that shocked my system. I said, no way, I'm not doing that. I'm doing something. There has to be some something else that makes sense. Brian Richards: Something that addresses the core, the root problem. So I'm thankful enough to have a mother who's actually a general practitioner physician who got into natural care about 25 years ago up in Montana, where I grew up and interesting cause she was doing stuff that nobody else was doing a long time ago. And so she hadn't, she, she kinda, I would say would be the, the sort of the inspiration, you know, the philosophical or inspiration for me. And I was skeptical of the conventional approaches. So I got online. I kept coming back through my research to sauna and to detoxification and this concept of cleansing the body to restore optimal functioning. So at the end of that, I discovered through a modern practitioner, Dr. Wilson's book on some of therapy and healing, the original incandescent Sonic concept, it's called the electric incandescent light bath. Brian Richards: And it's invented by Dr. Kellogg in 1891, about three years after incandescent light bulbs are invented, this dude comes out and he says, we're going to use these lights to make a sauna and something about it. It's better and it's going be better. And so he made this, he also make an L he also made an ArcLight bath as well, but he basically ran 50,000 invalid payment. So patients with chronic disease from 1904, 1907 through his incandescent sauna in battle Creek, Michigan. And he wrote a whole book on it called light therapeutics, and you can read this online. It's fascinating. And they look like these big Victorian cabinets. They're, they're gorgeous. And, and so here is it shocked me. I saw that and I was like, Whoa, there's an overhaul hundred and 20 years of safe use of this technology. And yet you can't find it anywhere. Brian Richards: Where do you buy an incandescent sauna? So I built my own and had this just wonderful healing experience, my insomnia, which is something I didn't mention before that it was really, really you know, frustrating me. I was sleeping amazingly after like two sauna sessions. And we know now there's a big HRV swing. There's a big parasympathetic swing with sauna afterward, which I didn't understand any of that stuff back then, but I was sleeping well immediately. So then I doubled down, I began to use it really with discipline for about six months, four or five days a week. And that basically coupled with just shifting to more of a paleo diet getting rid of sugar and flour, and I transformed my health in my life. And I, I was like six months later. It was only six months later that I realized that I actually had brain fog prior. Brian Richards: Right. In that, that was my baseline. Yeah. And I was, I've always been yeah. You know, successful in academics and things. So, but I was imp I was humbled by how much more clear-minded, I wasn't the clarity of mind, but also the ability to be more decisive. And so I would, all of a sudden, even with my mother, I'm more patient and less irascible, I'm a better listener. I have a more positive mood. I'm not anymore, or, well sometimes I still am, but that's part of being a boss that running a business. But with all that side, it was a really glorious experience. I couldn't believe that you couldn't buy a product like this in the market. At that time, I was in rental real estate fixing up things, and I love to tinker. I'm a builder. Brian Richards: I'm kind of an industrial designer of sorts, but I was doing it in houses for tenants who didn't care. And I didn't have the emotional spiritual constitution for that sort of line of work. I just wanted people to be happy. And I you know, it wasn't for me. So this thing came up on the side and all of a sudden people, I was making saunas for people. I started out making a F a couple every year for two years and I probably made five or 10 a year for two years and people loved it. And they were calling me up and saying, transform my life. It's amazing. I never got that type of response from Lieutenant. And so, so I, I doubled down. I was like, hell yeah, I'm all right. Then I'm dropping my tools. And I started sauna space. So 200 bucks, basically 200 bucks in my pocket got a small business export loan, six or seven months later because I had actually exported a couple saunas to England, which is cool. Brian Richards: And, and then it slowly evolved over time. And now I have this huge place. I actually have 38 employees now. Wow. And this 18,000 square feet, you can kind of see a little bit behind me. There's the textile on the front. It's actually small. It's, it's unbelievable to me. We don't have enough inventory space. So, so we're growing and we've overcome a lot of challenges, essentially. There was no commercialized incandescent a product. So I've been obsessive the product developing one thing for seven years now. And I've figured out a few things. I got a few things right now kind of what you have at the, at your house or at the, at the bio center was what I envisioned back then. Not any of the EMF stuff, but just the look and the feel. But now we have our own custom made light bulb. That's got a higher near-infrared radiance. We have our custom made electromagnetic mitigating fabrics and some other really cool stuff that is just totally unique to what we're doing and people like it. You know, people like it, Wade Lightheart: It's really remarkable. And almost everybody I know in the high performance health or holistic health or biohacking or biological optimization, kind of on that bleeding, cutting edge, virtually everybody uses saunas. We've all kind of discovered that. Now I want to clarify for people so that they can understand what makes sauna space over the different offerings or whatever. So maybe you could walk people through the different types of saunas that are out there. And what makes yours unique since you probably know the industry more than most people, would you do indulge? Yeah, Brian Richards: I can break it down and we don't have to get into the weeds of it. It's just a general overview. A sauna is a type of hyperthermia. You can do it in a bathtub and other ways to heat the body up. If you increase core temperature, three degrees and thereby overall cell temperature across the body, three degrees, you have all these amazing restorative healing responses related to heat, shock proteins, and other things that essentially in the literature we're seen in the studies, you live longer, you're a CA you have improved cognitive functioning. You have so many amazing things that happened with sauna. And I'm sure we'll talk about that for a while. But then the question is like, well, how do I want to heat my body up? Right? And that's where we're different. So with a hot tub, you have exposure to chemicals in the water. Brian Richards: And I think it's a more stressful way to heat the body up a sauna is interesting because it doesn't use water. So the classic or the classic finish on is do, but you're not soaking in water. But classic finished saunas, wet saunas, steam saunas, and actually farm for red saunas as well, heat the body up essentially by heating air up. And so that's why those songs have to be hot. And even far infrared saunas emit far infrared light, which doesn't, which is a hundred percent absorbed by water. And our bodies are made with a majority water about 70% water. So if you actually look at the studies, the deepest penetrating light in terms of human biological tissue is near Fred light. And this was where people get really confused farm for a light is great for heating up the air, and you can buy those far infrared emitters for patios. Brian Richards: And they're amazing cause you want, when you're chilling outside on the patio and it's cold outside, you want the air around you to be warm, but you don't want to be necessarily heating up your internal issues and sweating per se. Whereas in the sauna, we don't care about the air temperature while we care about as the core body temperature, right? So the difference is sauna space. Number one, in terms of sauna uses a big, huge 250 watt custom-made incandescent bulb and 40% of the light emission from this is near infrared, which is the deepest penetrating light that that's available out there in terms of biological tissue. This light penetrates on average many inches into the body. So with the sauna space sauna, we don't use the air to heat us up. There is really there just to stop us from cooling down too much. Brian Richards: So all that to say that when you use a sauna space sign, you don't really need to preheat your sweating in 10 minutes. Your core temperatures, Ray has risen three degrees in 15 or 20 minutes, and you're pretty much good. Any session you do to achieve the same core temperature elevation in a far infrared sauna or any wet sauna will take you at least 35 minutes guaranteed. And so, so number one, we just heat you up faster, which is cool, where we don't have time. So that's the number one differentiator in the sauna. It's also though a lower ambient air temperature since we don't need the air to be really hot, to keep this up. So folks with autoimmune issues with chronic issues where they're really weak and fatigue and really sensitive to heat, they really love our sauna because the air tip is your inside is only about 110, 115, you know, maybe 120. It's not like a farm for it's on, at 160 degrees or even a finished on it at 180 or even 200 degrees. Those are very stressful environments for folks you know, with chronic disease. But those are the people who need some of the most, the, Wade Lightheart: The ironic part, right? A lot of people don't recognize is like, if I take someone like my mom who was very sensitive to the heat per se, and doesn't sweat very well she can't go into a regular sauna because it gets too hot and she starts to panic or whatever, but in a sauna like this, she can go in there and, and start to systematically, increase her dosage to get the sweating up and to get the toxins out of the system or whatever. And I think you illustrate something very, very well because a lot of people are looking at just absolute temperature versus relative temperature inside the body. And I think that's the key, that's the, that's where the confusion is. They think, well, it's kind of like more is better. Like it's like if I take more of a supplement, it's not better unless I absorb it. Wade Lightheart: And it's same thing. It's the same thing with heat. What you're suggesting is because of the deeper penetration of the near infrared and not requiring the vast temperature increase there, you get a lot of the metabolic or all of the metabolic benefits to the body, without the Carollo airy challenges of massive heat. Like if you, if you're trying to get up to 160 degrees in a barrel sauna, you gotta get a barrel sauna. You probably gotta put it outdoors. You can't put it in your house. You need various venting things, all these sort of things, where with the sauna space, like the one we have, we just throw it in the room, plugged it in, in a way you go. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't have the balance choirs. Brian Richards: Yeah. That's the fundamental confusion in the market that we're trying to clear up. And I think we're doing good so far in clearing that up. The goal is not to heat up the room it's to heat your body up. And so you could do it in a lot of ways. We're just a lot more efficient. However, there's some other things going on with sauna space. There's this concept of light therapy. Photobiomodulation red light therapy, mitochondrial stimulation, light controlling biology. And it's all about the mitochondria simulation. Those of those of you I'm sure in your community are somewhat aware of, of, you know PBM. It's really widespread. Most of the mitochondrial stimulation you see out there are led based products, but the original product is not a product cause the sun. And in fact, people think the most benefit from sunlight is really primarily in the vitamin D production. Brian Richards: Do the ultra violet, a certain sorts of violet wavelengths. When in fact that's a small fraction of the sun, like I mentioned earlier a 40 it's like 41% of sunlight is near Fred and 15 or 20 Moore's red adding those two together. The majority of sunlight is mitochondrial stimulating wavelengths, which is really interesting. So for me, I think that it makes a strong argument that the majority of the benefit is there and not in the ultraviolet light stimulus, the ultraviolet light symbol is important. And these are all dose dependent things. And so they're all important, but we're supposed to get a bigger dose of red near infrared than we are ultra violet and blue. And even going further, we'll talk about it later, but you never got in nature blue light without near infrared red, only manmade artificial light introduces this bizarre concept that really messes with our biology. Brian Richards: So, so in sauna space, we're doing light therapy. And so for someone like your your mom or something like that, it feels good. There's neuros, there's beneficial neuropsychiatric effects that basically make you feel happy, reduce stress levels. They can literally calm down your nervous system while you're in the sauna. And actually, while you're in the sauna, it's a sympathetic activity. You're increasing heart rate, you're doing some things like that. But the, the light therapy, in addition, having its own benefits, inflammation reduction, gene repair, anti aging effects growth you know, cell growth effects. It's also like it's kind of like modulating the sauna therapy. It's giving the cells more energy as well. And, and detox and self repair is intense. We need energy. We can, we've got a lot to do in there. And so to directly energize your cells through near Fred light therapy, it really just changes the experience of our sauna. When you, when you do a sauna space on, I feel like we're any incandescent sauna, but, but particularly us, I think it's fun. It's a joyful experience. And, and you find it. I, I know so many people, they talk about it, me included, like you sit in a wet sauna and you're like, it's a time. It's a time, you know, can I get out now? Whereas in a song space on it's, it's more groovy. It's more just Zen. And that, that the biggest part of that I think is the light Wade Lightheart: It's, it's really pronounced and noticeable. And I, everywhere I go, I, I like to experiment with saunas and the different theories and stuff like that. But one of the things that I did know when I started using the sauna space, it was like, I felt there was a significant something. There's like, there's something going on here. And I want to talk a little bit because this is an area that I'm very sensitive to. And I think it's important for people to understand it. Years ago, I read a book by Dr. Rowley who would take people to different Heights in the mountains in Switzerland to expose them to different frequency, links of light. And he was healing tuberculosis at the turn of the century and all these types of wild things. Right. And, and I was fascinated with these, with this light spectrum. And you bring up something that I think is very critical. Wade Lightheart: I can walk into certain rooms and the lighting, I'm just like, I got to get out of here. Like, I can feel that the lighting is not, it's, something's wrong with the lighting, but the lighting is screwing up. It's not resonating with my body. And you bring up this particular incidence with, and one of my big pet peeves is these loud, these low energy balls that everybody's using. See, they seem to be the biggest violators. I don't like the feel of them. Can you explain what you just touched on with the variants in light between like the blue light or like, and how that happens naturally in nature and how we've kind of moved away from that with our indoor lighting? Brian Richards: Yeah. So nature's light, the light of nature is analog it's incandescent. So it's basically a flood is also referred to as full spectrum light. So from the sun, we get all the wavelengths, all of them actually, but in a very a very predictable curve and, and actually physics predicts this it's called black body radiation and stuff. So physics predicts how incandescence so when you heat a material hot up hot enough in nature, it begins to emit light naturally. And the hotter it is you know, the temperature of the emitter determines the peak point of the spectrum and sinking, like integrate Planck's law and do all this fancy physics. And you can predict the exact spectral emission of say the sun. And then you can measure the sun and measure all the wavelengths and the, and the, an empirical observation, like perfectly matches you know, the predicted spectrum. Brian Richards: So the concept is it's a fundamental aspect of our universe. Incandescence, it's, it's the ultimate, you know, nutrient obviously the, the light, there would be no life on earth without the sun. And so incandescent light is really infrared dominant. There's not much blue. And, and in terms of infrared, you know, there's like the 18, you know, it's, it's near for red and there's the B team it's mid-infrared and then farm Fred is there, and it does teach you, but in terms of the sunlight that reaches the earth, it's only about 2%. So we don't have much of an evolutionary experience with that. But like I said before, we're just glowing and just sucking in this near infrared red light every day, along with our blue and a red. And and so, and how long, how much near infrared light would we be getting viewed? Brian Richards: Do you estimate? I have a breakdown on the website, I think, but it's, it's about 41% near for red and about 15 or 20% red. So those two, two of those are, you know, take you over 50% blue, blue light is less, an ultraviolet light is a lot less. So what we did is we tried to design a bowl that would try to match that as close as possible. We did that because we want our technology to mimic nature. I mean, that's what we're doing to biohacking. We're trying to trick the body to think it's back out there and it's eating the food of old, and we're consuming all these mushrooms, all these amazing things like that. You guys promote that I love. And I'm so I'm. So for the problem is modern lighting doesn't exhibit any of these characteristics, modern lighting doesn't have a big broad curve with a long tail and infrared exhibiting all of these wavelengths with a big emphasis on near for red and red light. Brian Richards: Rather like LEDs, for example, are basically a huge spike of blue. And then they add in us fluorescent compound to make it look yellow. So to the eye, it looks like a tungsten. You know, it looks like a regular light bulb has a little bit that yellow, but in fact, the spectrum, if you measure it is, is almost entirely blue. And so that's also referred to in the industry as high energy visible light. So we know that blue light has the same effect on the body's ultraviolet light in a non-ionizing fashion. So it results in the same free, radical, and oxidative stress pathways that cause genetic damage DNA damage, it's just slower and it's lesser. And so when you walk into a room or a hospital, you go to high school, it's just like, Oh my God, I don't even know why, but I don't like it. Brian Richards: It's because it's all blue light. And if you look at studies where they shine, like blue light on worms, they like try to crawl to the ends of the earth to escape the blue light. Whereas whereas the near for a red light because of its healing properties you know, it really resonates with us. So in the modern indoor environments, we have only blue, blue, only light. I mean, I have the studio lights above me, so you can see me, we need blue, we need light to see it turns out that most, like I said, incandescent bulbs, there's this big chunk of healing. And then in the near infrared and mid-infrared, or particularly in the near for it, that's like that, you don't see that's invisible. So it has no purpose in task lighting or for, for lighting spaces. So with the development of wide new lighting technology, they cut out the infrared and all that waste wasteful emission. Brian Richards: Right. But, but unfortunately with very deleterious effects to our health, because that, that, that component, that wasteful energy component actually had a really important role it's helps keeps us happy and healthy, especially indoors. So we cut that out and it's it's, it's been very much to our detriment so much that the French OSHA it's called Nancy's the fresh, the French like occupational hazard government body. Again, that's called aunties. They issued a pretty broad proclamation about five years ago saying do not use general led lighting in the home or in the workspace. It should only be used in industrial applications for lighting purposes because it's so damaging to our bodies, particularly our eyes. But also we know that all the damaging product, you know, aspects of getting too much blue light, if you're sitting under a lot of blue light, when you're eating, you'll eat more because it's your body interprets it as a environmental stress. Brian Richards: So people that eat a lot on our blue light get fatter. Wow, well, that's one thing, but there's a lot of other aspects where all this blue only light that we never got on its own. Cause in nature, we got 15 or 20% blue, but we got this big fat overwhelming TOSA red near for red to galvanize us, to provide an antidote against all this high energy damaging light. And it's all gone in the fluorescent and modern led lighting, it's all blue. And then it gets even worse because it also flickers led lighting flickers according to alternating current. So it's, we have 60 Hertz frequency in the United States. So the led light turns on and off twice a second. And this is too fast for your conscious side to kind of to observe. But if you take your phone and, and, and shoot some video of a led light and then slow it down, you can see it. Brian Richards: You could see it flickering through the slow mode. You do the slow mode it's there. And so the, the, the reality is your body's blue, right receptors. See that interpret that and interpret that as a stress signal. So flickering light, if you imagine putting a strobe light in front of a, an autistic patient, you know, how foolish would that be? It's the same, you know, it's the same analogy just to a lesser effect. It, this, this all the problem with this and the problem with EMF stress and other modern stresses is that they're ubiquitous and prolonged and 24 hours a day. The, the ancestral human only ever had, or medic stresses temporary stresses. And that's, what's the good stuff. And that's why everybody in biohacking is doing sauna because it's an hormetic stress therapy. That's amazing for us, but our bodies are not designed to get stress all the time. It wears us down and the blue lights, you know, who, who doesn't work under blue light, myself included to everybody. So it's a real problem. Now that's hard to put your finger on, but the sheer amount of exposure we get now is really is really damaging to our health. And it's only more and more so with COVID with last year with more working at home than ever. Right. Wade Lightheart: Wow. Well, let's talk about that too, because now we're into kind of the frequency realm on the lights up, just so people know, if you want to check out learning about how mitochondrial function goes in the energy metabolism and you get down to it. I mean, everything's electron covalent transfer at the Micra. So we're really just moving electrons from one place to another. So it makes sense if you have a light that is penetrating deep inside the tissue to actually stimulate electrons into the mitochondria, it serves as boosting the battery directly, as opposed to being reliance on biochemical sources and the chemical reaction chain that we call digestion, absorption and utilization with it's correlative effects. And one of the things that I've noticed is that for me fasting, which I'm a regular faster, but if I'm in the desert and I'm fast thing, it's easier to achieve fasting in the desert where there's lots of sunlight and I'm wandering around the sun than it is. Wade Lightheart: If I'm in Canada at my parents' house in the winter where it's cold and dark and gray, it's a big difference. And I've always felt that it was EMI. It was the light spectrum. And of course yoga practices for thousands of years, talk about the advantages of exposing yourself, your eyes, your body, for healing at different points in the day for different effects. But let's get into another issue that you address, which is EMS, right. Electromagnetic frequencies. And what's very unique about sauna space is that you've created basically a ferret day cage that you go into. And, you know, my business partner, Matt has a fair day cage around his debt cause he's like a sleep freak. Yeah. And, and, and when I heard about your product, that it was in a day cage, I'm like, Oh God, I gotta, I gotta meet this guy and connect because this is so cool. How did you come to the conclusion of putting the sauna's face in a EMF blocking kind of tent sort of speak and, and what led to that decision and why did you go ahead and do that? So if you can share with people, your kind of flexible Brian Richards: Totally. Before I do that, I wanted to comment on your what you're talking about in the desert about light and Wade, where we, humans are much more, I'm going to get a little metaphysical here, but we're, we're much more quantum mechanical and, and, and, and bioelectric than we are biochemical. I believe that to be true. There's some interesting, the more we study, the more we have advanced observational technology, where we can see things and observe things. So it's such a mining scale. We see that fundamentally every system, the body is electromagnetic in nature. The blood is flowing down. The arteries is a voltage gradient. It's not a mechanical pump. That's pushing it. It's a voltage gradient. The blood-brain barrier keeps stuff out with a voltage gate. The most fundamental signaling system in the body, one of the most primordial is the calcium signaling system. Brian Richards: And those are full-tilt gated calcium ion channels, which are triggered which are controlled by voltage and are unfortunately disrupted by man-made electromagnetism. And so when we understand that we understand how important it is to, you know, maybe understand at a high level, some of this EMS stuff, but just understand the importance of it. That it's, it's just as relevant as the food you eat and perhaps more in some ways. So the mitochondrial stimulation, when you shine light on the cells, it actually satisfies, satisfies your caloric requirement in part for the day you're eating light or light eaters. So when you're in the desert, you're literally eating light and you don't get as hungry. It's crazy, but it's real. And, and it's doing so in this, in this the, the, the concept is, is just astonishing. I think it's really hard to wrap your mind around this photon of light from the sun is going into, and it's hitting the cytochrome C protein in the mitochondria, which has a electronic configuration that can absorb that photons and not other wavelengths. Brian Richards: And it, and it, and it kicks off a nitric oxide and increases ATP production, and then results in all the cast data mitochondrial functions. And, and so we're eating lights, we're eating this frequent particular frequency of light. And so we need this and, and, and we benefit from it, but it it's like, well, if that's the EMF and, and, and cell phone towers and cell phones, seagulls EMS, well, what gives way like, like, well, the problem is the stuff that's manmade that's non-native is bad because it's not something we evolved under one and two is 24 hours a day. It's 24 hours a day. Where can you go where you don't get a cell phone signal, even when you go camping now. And, and, and particularly when you're in a home, you have all the wired voltage as well from the, from the you know, from the wiring electricity in the house. Brian Richards: So I was learning more and more about the body and kind of the bioelectrical basis of things. And it got me really intrigued. And I already understood from the beginning that inherently incandescent technology is a little bit lower voltage than some of the other sauna technologies out there, but particularly the differences between us this and like a wet sauna. It uses a 30 amp heater. And so you have a lot more voltage, but really all of the products are problematic because all electrical products are problematic, right? Because all things that conduct electricity, city leak voltage, I'm talking about manmade things. Correct. so it's not enough to just use, you know, something technology that's a little better. We need to actually protect ourselves from the voltage. Cause that's an undesirable side effect of technology. We want the benefit from the light. Brian Richards: We want the hermetic stress from the light and the heat, but we don't want the sidecar, you know, we didn't want this, this thing. And, and unfortunately it's there because it's, you know, it's a man-made thing, but we have another technology, electromagnetic mitigation and shielding technologies to address that and, and deliver all the awesome benefits of the product and the technology without, without these problematic EMS. So I didn't no how in the heck to do that until I met this really amazing dude named Brian Hoyer of shielded healing. And if you haven't, I heard of him yet, you will. I think he's both of us are actually in Dr. Mercola's new book EMF. So giving myself a little plug there, but that's pretty cool. I, we not, you know, I'm a small company, it's not like some company, big operation here, but anyway, I met this guy at a conference and we started talking about voltage and grounding and stuff, and ended up having a bit of a collaboration. Brian Richards: He helped me, he really helped me understand the concept, but also some practical ways of mitigating it. He runs a company called shielded healing that basically goes into homes and assesses the electromagnetic situation and provides recommendations to permanent home. So there's different shielding paints you can use and different materials to basically build a Faraday cage of your entire bedroom, or there's so many awesome solutions for that. So I started collaborating a little bit with Brian Hoyer and, and started to try to figure out how to shield the voltage in, in first in the light panels. Right. And that was actually a little bit more straightforward than the sauna, of course. And I'll tell you about that in a second, but basically we we are in casing all the wiring and metal, and we're using shielded power cords, which basically have extra metal liners that are draining leaky voltage, and people think, well, what do you mean leaky voltage? Brian Richards: I don't ever get shocked from a power cord, what we're talking about 15 or 20 micro amps. So they're not things that you can necessarily see, but I think it's the whatever the American cancer society or, or whatever they, more than 50 micro ramps is considered carcinogenic. And there's a lot of situations in your home right now where you intermittently experienced like 200 micro amps. So it's enough that as juicy new, and it has a deleterious effect slowly over time, just slowly breaking you down and killing you over time. So I was like, okay, let's lock down the CMF, let's take care of it. So we addressed electromagnetic all a voltage, but also magnetic field issues. Mostly most of the sauna products out there that you see some of these other sauna companies, they're, they're a little bit sneaky, a little bit tricky for them because they only talk about a magnetic field, which is measured in Gauss or Mila gas, use a Gauss meter measure that there's also a potentially more of a nervous stressor is, is, is voltage stress. Brian Richards: So electric field stress, and what's in the air. The most ubiquitous EMS stress we have in our society and our world is absolutely cell phone technology. And those are electric fields. So really the worry frankly about EMS is more about Volta is about electric fields. Then magnetic fields, magnetic fields, sources that are significant include like your power breaker, you know, where all your circuits are in your house, those big green transformer things outside of buildings, big power lines. So we're talking big industrial sources. That's where you get into magnetic field and you can kind of get screwed sometimes when you buy an apartment and you don't know, and you don't see that, but generally speaking the ubiquitous stuff, that's all around us, no matter where we go is in the home, low frequency voltage from wire electricity, and then everywhere cell phone technology, which is currently about 1800 megahertz to about two or three gigahertz frequencies, things are really tricky. Brian Richards: There higher frequencies are really small, you know, higher frequencies are small, so they actually penetrate really small holes. So if you're going to block them out, you have to seal it up and make a real Faraday cage. So a Faraday cage for those of you out there who don't know is basically a, a six sided volume of some kind that electric fields don't go in or out, they call them Gaussian spheres, and you can build these. And they have these testing facilities where you test the hardening of electronics, like a big John Deere tractor. You don't want a cell phone signal to take over a big, big robot Caterpillar and start driving it down the street. So it already exists in laboratories. But it was, I was trying to create it for the sauna and I was trying to create it for the sauna because we know there's a lot of problems with electromagnetic stress. Brian Richards: So I'll get to those in a second. But what we did with the sauna was basically, we said, well, I want to make a metal box, but I want to make it machine washable. I want it to be natural and hypoallergenic, no chemicals, and hopefully even organic. And, and that took about four generations in two years and a lot heartache. But we now offer a 35% silver, 65% organic cotton washable material that we have third-party lab tested between 40 kilohertz and 40 gigahertz and has amazing shielding effectiveness, right, where we want it right in the cell phone range, which is the worst of the worst. That'll be up next month on the new website, but, but it's cool. It really works. And so what we did is we said, okay, we're going to use this metallic liner and we ground it. Brian Richards: And what it does is it takes like all the electric fields in the air that are flying in and trying to go into the sauna, they hit the metal, and then they drain out through the power cords ground, cause it's grounded. So it's a really interesting concept. What does that do? Well, what that does is it, it, it gives you the first, probably time in your life that you've actually been completely free from nervous stress and it's the blue light. Cause the curtains closed, it's dark in there. There's no window, right? There's no glass door. And then you get inside that Faraday space. And for the first time ever, your voltage gated, calcium ion channels are not opening constantly. Wade Lightheart: Right. And you feel it if like I'm sensitive to a lot of things and the second you go inside that tent, you feel a difference. And I like, I'm very sensitive to a variety of things and I'm kind of tuned myself and I go inside that and I go, okay. It, you know, what it reminded me of the first time is like, when I was a little kid and you would kind of put the blanket over a bunch of chairs and the table and you would play underneath. And it was kind of like this secret space that nobody could get to that was before cell phones, by the way, folks, the first time I went in there, I triggered to that time when in my childhood. And I was like, well, that's really neat. Yeah. So it's a beautiful experience. I want to switch gears a little bit and just talk a little bit about some of the research I think which is relevant right now, because these are very stressful times with know COVID and infectious disease and things like that. But, and people are stressed out with the economic fallout of, you know, the mitigations and things like that. What are you were talking just before here, there there's some very positive effects using this technology on infectious diseases and potentially even in COVID cases. Brian Richards: Yeah, very interesting. Last year, obviously in the forefront of everybody's mind was wasn't is the current public health crisis of, of, COVID-19 not just the actual disease and the virus itself, but the societal effects of Corazones and lockdowns of kids, not being able to go to school and so forth. And what we saw as an explosion in you know, adverse neuropsychiatric disorders, depression, anxiety, suicide violence and that was not just something I read in the news. I felt that viscerally here in the community here locally and also in, in the natural wellness community, you know, across the nation, across the world, everybody is, you know suffering from this and dealing with this. So there was a couple of really interesting things that were that, that, that speak to this in regards to near-infrared light therapy and sauna. So start with the first one, the first one was a photobiomodulation study where they gave a, an advanced, they had this advanced COVID patient was in the hospital. Brian Richards: There were about to put them on a ventilator. His pneumonia index was really high tissue, oxygen saturation, terribly low. This guy is like in a really bad way, experiencing all of the, the symptoms of COVID-19. And they did a they did a 20 minute near-infrared light treatment on the lungs a day for four days. So for 20 minutes, a red light and near for light therapy treatments on the lungs. And after the fourth session, his pulmonary index and his tissue oxygenation improved so much. And he was so much relieved that he walked out of the hospital. Now, this is just a case study, right? But like this guy was on Wade Lightheart: An anecdotal case of somebody going on here, but here's the bottom line is, is this, this would be indicative that, Hey, maybe we need to research this a little bit more. Brian Richards: And what's going on is, is that the, the near for a light and mitochondrial stimulation is understood to increase tissue oxygenation, and it also immediately reduces inflammation. And so when you do that in the lungs, you allow the lungs to breathe better. Cause that's kind of, what's going on. Apparently with COVID is, is the Corona virus can occupy the heme spot in your blood. So your blood red blood cells can't carry oxygen. And your body's only thing you can do is like make more red blood cells. And it's kind of this battle to the finish he was gonna win. But the, the what a, what a cool thing that you have a really non-invasive therapy here. Totally. Non-invasive no side effects something that everybody can do at home has all these other amazing benefits and absolutely has direct clearly it has you know, there's a support for an argument that it has a direct benefit to treating COVID itself, not just being a preventative measure. Brian Richards: And so we also have that in our community. We have a number of anecdotal reports because a of people got COVID last year. Right. And you know, we have number of, of our customers who already had a product and they ended up contracting COVID and got through it really successfully, really easily, you know, using salt, using light therapy. This one guy Brett said, and he only had the photon at that point. And he said, yeah, I got COVID. And I felt like I was drowning. Like, I felt like my, my couldn't breathe. Well, I was. And what he did was he did just targeted therapy treatment with the photon every day and, and, and really breeze through it. I have several studies of that. Of course, those are all anecdotal and we're engaging in conjecture here. But the, the, the, the vast science of 7,000 studies of near-infrared light therapy and photobiomodulation and general support, or all of this, that, that it's okay. Brian Richards: Extremely beneficial for improving, you know, it's, it's already been used in so many studies and, and in so many real life cases for pulmonary disorders, you know, for chronic upper respiratory tract infections and things. Yeah. Like that, just the light therapy and then bring in the sauna to bring in the heat therapy, the cleansing aspect that it has to that. And the, the heat shock protein is not just all about detoxing. You it's all about also repairing your proteins and your enzymes. So your heat shock proteins, they go around and fix and optimize protein functioning, which is how sauna therapy can positively you know how solitary could be, can improve your insulin functioning and increase insulin signaling because the HT chalk protein goes out of the cell and fixes the insulin receptor protein, and then insulin binds better. And you reduce insulin resistance, which is a huge thing. Brian Richards: Like that's a huge problem in society that's going on. So there's, there's all these amazing things it does to help heal you the sauna therapy and the light therapy, but to speak directly to what you also asked, all this suffering that we have going on, we also see really interesting benefits and positive neuropsychiatric effects of light therapy and of sauna. It makes you happy. There's actually a fairly, a newer study where we're seeing near for light shine on the brain cells promoting production of monoamine, neurotransmitters, dopamine, and serotonin. And so that's like that stuff makes you feel good. It makes it feel happy. So I think there's a strong argument. Although, again, this is [inaudible], this is my opinion that even for things like salads, seasonal, effective disorder, the solution is not a flickering blue light, which is what sad lamps are. It's in fact, mitochondrial stimulation is what the body needs, and that was what the body misses. They're using blue light to Jack you up. And Bluelight jacks you up just like you know, a stimulant to us just like coffee does very stimulating and it feels good for a little bit. Right? Right. And then you come down and you feel even, you know, in some ways even worse. So the reasons phones and Wade Lightheart: Computers can be so addictive and hypnotic is that blue light flickering stimulation response, and eventually leads to adrenal fatigue. And I, and, and when you start dumping so much cortisol from these, and I believe that this is one of the contributing factors to the depression of testosterone in men and the increase in estrogen lization through chemicals visitation, because the, the radical amount of cortisol, I have dozens of friends in their late twenties and early thirties who are internet marketers who spend a great time, amount of time on the computer. And virtually all of them are on testosterone replacement therapy when they should be at a very high level. And I found that fascinating, and that's another anecdotal thing, but to circle around in regards to infectious diseases, of course, this goes back to Dr. Rowley or his work when he was dealing with tuberculosis and things like that. And he would take people out and expose the bare skin to the sun and, and, and start picking up these different. And he had it all gauged of how much at each level of altitude, depending on where the person's sick. It's a great, it's a great read. You can look it up Dr. Rowley, or, and I forget what the name of the book, but it's fascinating that this, Brian Richards: Yeah, yeah. I would add something else. So that to the, in, before electricity, before light therapy, the early light therapy of like 1910 and they used to put stain glass in the window and sit lupus patients in front of the glass. So the red glass filters out the blue and ultra violet, but let's sit near Fred, Fred, and they would honestly, God heal lupus vulgaris, which people would die of back in the day completely just with light Wade Lightheart: W you know, we had a church that I used to go to when I was a kid and had this ginormous, stained glass windows. They were massive stained glass windows, and the light would filter into it. And there is a unique place if you go to the great cathedrals in Europe and that light pouring into this stained glass, with all the colors, there is a distinctive effect on the body. Like, you might not know what it is, but you're like, okay, there's things going on here. So it's amazing. What is new? What is old, but you have created a way to kind of hack if you will, or optimize light therapy in an increasingly electrically complex world. Brian Richards: Yeah. Well, and I did want to add a little bit more to that because it's not just about serotonin and dopamine. There's really strong studies out there now in improving your mood and your, and your, your happiness using light therapy. There's these studies using there's this thing called like the ham anxiety index. And, and basically they just dose people with near Fred light and see if they feel better. And they have various psychiatric standards to address this. There's, there's like this anxiety, this is other one, these are all quality of life measurements, but across the board, you see that people have reduced anxiety, increased confidence, reduced depression more positivity across the board with light therapy. And we need that more than ever. And so, and so I just say, well, we'll we'll heck if you're going to do sauna, you're going to do light therapy, do them together. Wade Lightheart: Well, let's talk, and let's talk about this because we're going to wind things up here in a second, but talk about sauna space. I know we're going a little special offer. We're going to add people. If you want to go and check out sauna space at bioptimizers.com/sauna space, you'll get 10% off, but can you share with our listeners the type of offerings that you have in the sauna space and what you're doing, and maybe new projects that you're coming up with, because I have to, what I love about your product or your project and your businesses. I've actually taken one of the, the light panels out of the, out of the sauna space. Cause it comes on those kinds of rods or whatever. And I took one out and I put it in the living room and I turn it on in the evening for evening light and people come in and it's got a cool kind of red lounge and it's nice and it's soft and it's relaxing. And it gets a lot of attention. I'm like, yeah. Cause, cause it comes from my sauna. But are you looking to get into the lighting industry, even maybe as a potential thing, because I've got a major issue with all of the lighting I'm dealing with everywhere I go, it's like, we need new lighting, this sucks, but tell us all the offerings that sauna space and what you guys are up to and where people can find out more about you and your company. Brian Richards: Yeah. Number one, sauna space is about sauna. That's the, has the most impact on your health? We have a lot of different offerings. We basically offer our tungsten panel, which is the heart of the sauna. That's what you're referring to the full light system. That's the base. We offer that on its own for folks who have a farm for its sauna and want to upgrade or have a closet or a small space. And they just don't have the space for the full, our, our sauna space and enclosure. And so you can start out with that. And then you can build up to our standards on, are based on, which is our Illuminati sauna that features the integrated grounding mat, which is really cool and is like totally ready to upgrade with EMF shield to the, to the fair day. But basically the having the electromagnetic liner turns the Illuminati into a fair day. Brian Richards: But even the Illuminati has the grounding mat, which provides you really substantial, almost a hundred percent protection from all the wired voltage. So the Illuminati totally protects you from wired EMS. Don't worry about that. But if you want to block out the cell phone signal and all the wireless EMS, you can upgrade to the fair day since the Faraday fabric is, is really hard to make, and it has so much silver in it, it isn't, it is expensive. And so we designed it so that you could, you know, start humbly and start slow. And once our technology, what we do at song space proves itself to you, you know, you can upgrade to, to having that Faraday cage, there really is nothing like it. And you know, if you go into the Faraday sauna with the light you'll you'll experience, what it means to be without EMF on the body, without voltage on the body, and then you turn the lights on it's Whoa, it's even more, but, but for those of you out there, like, well, the sauna it's 20 minutes, I got to shower afterward. Brian Richards: It takes up some space in my home. You know, what can I do right now? What can I do to have some kind of benefit we came out with at some point, this thing I keep showing it keeps popping up now this photon, so this is one light. This is traditionally used for a hundred years for targeted light therapy for spot therapy benefit. They've been using these on race horses for 50, for 40 50 years to heal wounds. And that's a big aspect of light therapy is wound healing and anti-aging and stuffs. So it's been around for a long time. But it turns out it's good for humans too. Not just animals. We actually are animals. You know, let's not forget that. And so we offer this out, it's, it's super affordable, it's super small and it's a much it's just a, for the skeptics out there or the passive users out there, it's a great way to start. Brian Richards: So first you can use it with targeted therapy, but you can do what you want. Wait, you put this next to your computer and it cancels out the blue light and the flickering light effect. And it just makes the indoor lighting enjoyable. And then, you know, there's the same reason you put it in your living room. That's, we're calling it. It's kind of a cheesy phrase, but yeah, we're calling it optimizing you know, your indoor, your, your indoor environmental light environment, your indoor enlight environment is very artificial, but you bring this in, instead of going out into nature, just bring that fireplace into our, you know, into our office, into our living room. And then after dark, we don't want any more blue light. Right? And if we, if we, if we in then a rental space where we have built in permanent led lighting, there's no taking that out, but I want to be able to sit with my family and my friends after dark. Brian Richards: So you use this it's the perfect nightlight. There was no blue light and no flickering, light it's enough light to groove and chill and hang with. And so it's kind of optimal nocturnal lighting as it were. And like you say, you can just plug it in. You don't have to have a fireplace and start a fire and have a bonfire in the middle of your house. That's not practical. So, so this, this is a new thing that people are using both for the spot therapy, but also increasingly in a passive sense to make they all the time that they're endorsed suck less and be more enjoyable. And it works. And it absolutely works. So we, we got that going on. That's our general product line. And so I urge you definitely to start out with a photon and just to try it out, everything we do here, it comes with a a hundred day trial. Brian Richards: It's free shipping in the USA. So frankly, if you don't like it, I don't want you, but if you do like it and then, okay, and you decide over a lengthy trial period, you do love it. Then, then that's what matters. And so we gave you a long time to try it out. But as far as like particular technologies that we have coming out, we have some cool stuff coming out. So we came out with our own thermal libel, but it's a, it's a hand-blown artists and made bulb where I've redesigned the film inside way to amid about two to four times the irradiance and near infrared and red as a standard heat lamp. So this is not grandpa's heat lamp. This is the thermal light, and it's just more, more and more big and bad. So when people feel it, cause we for five years use the standard heat lamps. Brian Richards: And then a lot of people have been upgraded since then. And you can feel it it's, it's more light therapy, so it's more intense and energizing, but not in a stressy way in a energizing awesome way. So I've had that we've had great success with that so far, but we also have some really cool stuff. We have five new, or we have four new Sonic colors now, including the natural. So we have five options now, and it's a little bit more fun, a little more, you know, but what you have is it's not just organically died. We actually tried to commercialize our you've asked Rick dying of fabrics. This is, are you Vedic medicine? As it applies to medicinal dying of fabrics for health benefits. So turmeric is anti-inflammatory. And so we went to India and we, we found a way to develop this. Brian Richards: So the organic process, they're literally taking the yarn and dipping into barrels of turmeric water and then laying the yarn out. And I'm like, like tree limbs, and then weaving it up into a fabric and making this turmeric dyed fabric, which is really cool to be surrounded by that inside the sauna super far out. So yeah, we got that and we just continue to product develop excessively our EMF mitigation, fabrics, and technologies. And we also have this other cool thing that if you haven't seen the old one, you wouldn't notice, but this is the new guard. The light guard I've developed like four or five. This is the fifth version of it. It just came out and it's a very important safety upgrade. The entire thing is a stainless steel mesh cage now. So if that bowl breaks in there, it stays inside and it's also cha it's child lock. Brian Richards: So to get it out, you have to twist and pull at the same time with two hands. So children can't get in here where the old one, you could get your fingers in the back. And also if you don't have awareness, or if you have brain fog, not necessarily children, you know, you don't want to inadvertently touch anything. And so it's all, it's just a super bad new design that took two years to develop. And we've been developing under the Corona virus stuff. It finally released us. It was really frustrating. There's a lot of material delays. And, and, and so those of you out there who get frustrated when your order doesn't arrive on time you know, for last year's holiday, it's because the entire all supply chains across the world were screwed up and disrupted. And we're very thankful. We made it through in terms of dealing with a lot of serious shortages, you know, left and right. But, but we got this that came out. It's a huge safety improvement. It's super awesome. And that's just kind of a taste of what we do here. We'll do a lot more here this year. I, I'm not going to disclose anything, but we do have some cool stuff that's brand new that will come out in 24. Wade Lightheart:Awesome. So great. Brian Richards from sauna space, for those who want to go give a shot to some of his devices, I highly recommended I use it every single week, I wouldn't say every day, but almost every day that I'm in using actually I use the light every day because we turn it on the living room every single night. It's a great ambient light. I love it. It's super awesome and feels amazing. Bioptimizers.Com/Sauna space. Brian, thank you for joining us today, taking time. I know you're running a factory and all these things, supply chains of building stuff, and your business is growing. And it's very excited. I want to thank you for joining us today and for all our listeners on the awesome health show at bioperine owners, of course, we really appreciate you took the time to listen to that. I hope you learn some really cool things and you know what? Give this a shot. Sauna technology is one of the best ways I know to mitigate the damaging effects of technological innovation and Brian and his company. Sauna space is leading the way with real world solutions that not only work, but make you feel great. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you on the next episode. See ya. Brian Richards: See you later.