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169: How This Doctor Reversed Her MS and Recovered – with Dr. Terry Wahls

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What a remarkable story. 

Twenty years ago, our guest took a walk with her wife when her left leg suddenly stopped working correctly. The leg inexplicably lost most of its strength, causing Dr. Terry to hobble home confused.

The next day, our guest was in a neurologist’s office and heard these life-changing words: “Terry, this could be bad. Or, really, really bad.” 

Over the next two weeks, Dr. Terry went through a battery of tests. During those two long weeks, she kept thinking about what her neurologist said – and prayed for a fatal diagnosis to avoid a life of disability. 

Finally, the diagnosis came in: multiple sclerosis.

Within three years, Dr. Terry found herself in a tilt-recline wheelchair, unable to sit up at her desk. This rapid deterioration occurred despite seeing the best specialists and taking the newest, cutting-edge medications. 

Whether listening or watching on YoutTube, Dr. Terry’s story on what happens next is jaw-dropping. Listen to get inspired. If you know someone with MS, please share this interview with them. 

Because everything Dr. Terry shares is science-based. Fortunately for her (and ultimately for all of us), being a doctor with MS was a blessing in disguise. This enabled her to begin using the research skills she developed in her medical career to explore multiple sclerosis and search for possibilities.

During her journey, Dr. Terry became a functional doctor through the Functional Medicine Certified Practitioner program. She is also a longtime clinical professor of medicine at the University of Iowa, conducting clinical trials. In 2018, Dr. Terry won the Institute for Functional Medicine’s Linus Pauling Award for her research, clinical care, and patient care.   

She is also the author of The Wahls Protocol: A Radical Way to Treat All Chronic Autoimmune Conditions Using Paleo Principles, and The Wahls Protocol: Cooking for Life.  

How did Dr. Terry go from being in a wheelchair to riding her bike to work each day? How did she overcome MS and restore her health? 

Tune in and find out!    

In this podcast, we cover:

  • Dr. Terry’s emotional story
  • What is multiple sclerosis?
  • That moment her entire family cried tears of joy 
  • Dr. Terry’s profound “A-ha” moment
  • The dietary changes involved in her breakthrough
  • How meditation played a role in Dr. Terry’s recovery
  • Dr. Terry’s exciting clinical trials
  • The emotional struggles of losing your ability to run, ride a bike, or hike
  • How Terry’s partner dealt with her MS 
  • How to bring more innovation to the medical industry

A Funny Moment that Shocked Her Doctors

For a long time during her illness with MS, Dr. Terry saw her neurologist every six months. 

As her condition turned around and she found herself in a much better place, Dr. Terry called her neurologist’s office.

“There’s been a big change! I should really see a physician.”

Wanting to see her that day, Dr. Terry said, no, I want to come on Friday. Despite their protests, she waited till Friday.

“So I walk in, and I’m not in my tilt recline wheelchair. I’m in the waiting area, and the nurse comes out. She’s got a chart, and she’s looking around, and I realized she is looking for me.”

“So I stand up and go, ‘Hey, Cindy! Over here!’ She is like, ‘Oh my God, you’re walking!” My physician is thrilled, and he says the same thing, ‘Oh my God! You’re walking!’”

Those Who Disrupt the Status Quo Face Ridicule and Criticism

Over the time since she defied her prognosis and went on to clinically test her theories and positively change the lives of others suffering from MS, plenty of tomatoes get hurled at Dr. Terry. 

Here is a snippet of what Dr. Terry said about her critics: “Anyone who is truly innovative is going to draw ire because it’s very uncomfortable to have to abandon constructs of how you understand the world.”

“I don’t want to do that. You don’t want to do that. None of us do. So I don’t think it’s possible to have innovation without facing ridicule and rejection at first.” 

“And then your new ideas either pan out or are suppressed. So you keep doing the experiments.”  

One of the most profound episodes of the Awesome Health Podcast, Dr. Terry’s personal story from an MS diagnosis back to feeling good again, is truly astonishing. But what makes this even more startling is the fact that this happened to a medical doctor, a clinical professor, who has gone on to show the medical community a whole new way of looking at MS. Many people get results through Dr. Terry’s breakthrough work and will continue to do so as she continues her research at the University of Iowa.

Check out this episode – discover a groundbreaking approach to multiple sclerosis.

Episode Resources: 

Check out more about Terry Wahls, MD 

FREE GIFT: Pick up a one-page handout for the Wahl’s Diet

Clinical Trial in Sage Journals

Terry Wahls M.D. on YouTube

Dr. Terry Wahls on Instagram

Terry Wahls MD on Facebook

Dr. Terry Wahls on Twitter

Read The Episode Transcript:

00:01:24.930 --> 00:01:25.140
00:03:43.620 --> 00:03:44.700
Wade Lightheart: hi Terry how are you doing.
00:03:45.150 --> 00:03:46.320
Terry Wahls: Excellent how are you.
00:03:46.860 --> 00:03:52.530
Wade Lightheart: Excellent i'm so excited to have you here today it's
so great, for you, James Where are you calling in from.
00:03:53.370 --> 00:03:55.170
Terry Wahls: A client from iowa city iowa.
00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:59.040
Wade Lightheart: Okay okay so great, where the papers have been
00:04:01.260 --> 00:04:17.310
Wade Lightheart: But I had the pleasure of reviewing beforehand before
we get started, I just want to go through a couple of quick things is
there any particular areas that you'd like to talk about today, or is
important to kind of cue you up to mention.
00:04:18.210 --> 00:04:20.730
Terry Wahls: US remind me who your audiences.
00:04:21.030 --> 00:04:24.900
Wade Lightheart: So our audience is people who are looking at.
00:04:26.190 --> 00:04:35.640
Wade Lightheart: We call biological optimization they're leveraging
technology and nutritional supplementation exercise fitness all that
sort of stuff to address.
00:04:36.150 --> 00:04:42.720
Wade Lightheart: How do they improve their health, how do they you
know live a healthier life, a better life that sort of stuff and we
bring different people from.
00:04:43.350 --> 00:04:50.820
Wade Lightheart: Every possible background to address the importance
of diet, nutrition and how they can improve the quality of their life
or their family members.
00:04:51.420 --> 00:05:15.510
Terry Wahls: Okay, so our recent research will be launching another
study here shortly we're very close to having that approved in, then I
have a seminar next year and so it's a four part series and get the
whole seminar or they could just get the last one, which is all about
healthy aging.
00:05:16.530 --> 00:05:17.280
Wade Lightheart: Oh wow.
00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:21.360
Wade Lightheart: and
00:05:23.820 --> 00:05:28.530
Wade Lightheart: will probably going to your story, because I think
it's super inspirational and.
00:05:28.890 --> 00:05:32.460
Terry Wahls: Oh yeah I should tell my story people yeah so how much
time do we have.
00:05:32.730 --> 00:05:39.510
Wade Lightheart: Well, the year actually the defining component on it
so that was my next question is, do you have any hard stops there, and
00:05:39.900 --> 00:05:46.170
Terry Wahls: I probably do so let me look at my calendar now because
my team keeps this going.
00:05:47.430 --> 00:05:52.680
Terry Wahls: So it looks like 1230 is absolutely hard stop.
00:05:53.430 --> 00:06:00.030
Wade Lightheart: Okay, great well let's get you guys are two hours
difference in iowa then over here on the west coast right.
00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:03.570
Terry Wahls: yeah, it is now 11.
00:06:04.290 --> 00:06:05.220
Terry Wahls: Before four.
00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:16.440
Wade Lightheart: Perfect alright, so I will do my little razzle dazzle
introduction and then we'll get into we'll get into this as soon as
you're ready to go.
00:06:17.310 --> 00:06:17.850
Wade Lightheart: Okay.
00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:19.980
Terry Wahls: I get settled, we are good.
00:06:20.700 --> 00:06:21.210
00:06:22.530 --> 00:06:33.900
Wade Lightheart: Okay, for our recording team, we will start the
podcast here in 321.
00:06:34.710 --> 00:06:51.810
Wade Lightheart: Good morning, good afternoon and good evening it's
way too light heart from by optimizer with another edition of the
awesome health podcast and today we have Dr Terry walls joining us,
and this is a really exciting and important.
00:06:53.400 --> 00:07:09.000
Wade Lightheart: audio recording video recording if you're watching it
on YouTube because Dr Terry walls has a very unique story, first of
all, she is in the Institute of functional medicine certified
practitioner in a clinical professor of medicine at the University of
00:07:09.270 --> 00:07:22.560
Wade Lightheart: where she conducts clinical trials in 2018 she was
awarded the Institute for functional medicines Linus Pauling Award for
her contributions and research clinical care and patient advocacy.
00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:29.160
Wade Lightheart: she's also a patient with the secondary progressive
multiple sclerosis sclerosis sclerosis sorry.
00:07:29.760 --> 00:07:38.250
Wade Lightheart: I have a hard time saying that sometimes we're going
to say that again she is also a patient with secondary progressive
multiple cirrhosis.
00:07:38.640 --> 00:07:47.310
Wade Lightheart: Which couldn't find her to a tilt recline wheelchair
for four years walls restored her health.
00:07:47.730 --> 00:07:56.790
Wade Lightheart: Using a diet and lifestyle program she designed
specifically for her brain and now pedals her bike to work every.
00:07:57.210 --> 00:08:09.870
Wade Lightheart: Each day she's the author of the walls protocol a
radical new way to treat all chronic autoimmune conditions, using
Paleo principles and the cookbook the walls protocol cooking for life.
00:08:10.350 --> 00:08:25.050
Wade Lightheart: learn more about her Ms clinical trials at http PS,
you know that colon slash slash walls w H l s dot lab diet you I O w
00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:40.680
Wade Lightheart: Forward slash.we will have the links to this, I just
had a chance there, Dr Terry to look at that trial and it's
extraordinary you have an extraordinary story, I mean you know I had.
00:08:41.610 --> 00:08:56.520
Wade Lightheart: Some a relative that suffered from multiple
sclerosis, and it is a very progressive in kind of depressing
condition of it's in so many people suffer suffer from it.
00:08:56.970 --> 00:09:06.450
Wade Lightheart: I was actually Member when I was in elementary
school, we did fundraising for multiple sclerosis research, and I
remember I.
00:09:06.780 --> 00:09:15.780
Wade Lightheart: raised a bunch of funds and I got this little green
little puppy dog as a prize for my for my work is again, I was very
proud of that, because that was the first time I was.
00:09:16.170 --> 00:09:31.590
Wade Lightheart: introduced to the importance of research around
degenerative conditions, and you have kind of spearheaded not only
your own recovery, but also some extraordinary research in this area,
can you talk about your journey that led you to this.
00:09:31.830 --> 00:09:32.220
00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:47.520
Terry Wahls: So when I was 20 years ago i'm out walking with my wife
and my left leg gross week on dry unit a humble home next day, I see
the neurologist who says, you know Terry this could be bad or really,
really bad.
00:09:48.240 --> 00:10:01.080
Terry Wahls: So the next two weeks, while i'm thinking going through
the workup I think about bad in really, really bad I, and I don't want
to be disabled so actually i'm praying for a fatal diagnosis.
00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:09.630
Terry Wahls: Two weeks later, I hear multiple sclerosis, I see the
best people take the no drugs three years later I hear totally fine
00:10:10.530 --> 00:10:26.400
Terry Wahls: I take my de Santo infusions than ties IV infusions
nothing helps I am too weak to set up at my desk my zingers do the
trigeminal neuralgia electoral jolts of pain, are more frequent more
severe more difficult to turn off.
00:10:27.870 --> 00:10:33.090
Terry Wahls: Fortunately i'm a physician, so I go to the basic
science, I began reading.
00:10:34.140 --> 00:10:47.910
Terry Wahls: And experiment, the based on what i'm reading I developed
theory that mitochondria are a big driver, particularly in the more
progressive decline and so At first I work on supplements.
00:10:49.200 --> 00:11:01.350
Terry Wahls: speed of my declined slows, then I discovered study using
electrical stimulation muscles I convinced my physical therapist so
let me try that my test session hurts like hell, but when it's over I
feel great.
00:11:02.520 --> 00:11:15.450
Terry Wahls: I, and so my therapist lets me add East him to my
workouts I discovered the Institute for functional medicine, I take
their course on neuro protection, I have more supplements that i'm
00:11:16.770 --> 00:11:31.170
Terry Wahls: In, then I have a really big Aha and sort of in
retrospect wait i'm like dear God how That takes me so long to think
about this i'm like what if I redesign my Paleo diet that i'd been
following for last five years.
00:11:32.520 --> 00:11:40.350
Terry Wahls: Based on all the science i've been reading the nutrients
that i've said, are important if taking supplements, what if I figure
out where they are in the food supply.
00:11:41.370 --> 00:11:43.020
Terry Wahls: So redesign my Paleo diet.
00:11:45.120 --> 00:12:01.440
Terry Wahls: And it's stunning three months later, my zingers of 27
years are gone my fatigue is gone and my physical therapist says Terry
you're getting stronger it begins advancing exercise.
00:12:03.090 --> 00:12:03.600
Terry Wahls: and
00:12:04.620 --> 00:12:07.680
Terry Wahls: Three months after that I am walking without a cane.
00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:10.560
Terry Wahls: Three months after that.
00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:15.570
Terry Wahls: I.
00:12:17.190 --> 00:12:18.150
Terry Wahls: got on my bike.
00:12:19.290 --> 00:12:25.860
Terry Wahls: For the first time in six years with my son zach jogging
alongside in the left my daughter's tab on the right.
00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:29.310
Terry Wahls: And my wife behind.
00:12:30.900 --> 00:12:43.140
Terry Wahls: I biked around the block for the first time, you know
everyone's crying my kids are crying my wife's crying i'm crying if
you could see my face you'd see that i'm crying because that.
00:12:45.090 --> 00:12:56.460
Terry Wahls: That was the moment where I understood that the current
understanding of multiple sclerosis was incomplete and who knew how
much recovery might be possible.
00:12:57.660 --> 00:12:58.140
Terry Wahls: and
00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:02.070
Terry Wahls: You know it's about five months after that.

00:13:03.780 --> 00:13:13.170
Terry Wahls: Then I completed an 18.5 mile bike ride with my family
and once again roll cry you know my kids are crying my wife's crying
i'm crying.
00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:30.840
Terry Wahls: If this really transforms how I think about disease and
health, it will transform the way I practice medicine and it
transforms the focus of my research, I and we've done five clinical
00:13:32.010 --> 00:13:46.560
Terry Wahls: We hopefully we'll be talking about most recent one we've
got a couple more trials that will be getting launched here
momentarily I and i've gone from being this.
00:13:48.570 --> 00:13:56.070
Terry Wahls: sort of unusual eccentric person that was roundly
condemned by many in the Ms community.
00:13:57.540 --> 00:14:02.400
Terry Wahls: To be now are respected dietary intervention research.
00:14:03.930 --> 00:14:18.720
Terry Wahls: In the Ms community and really changing the whole
discussion that diet and lifestyle are in should be an essential part
of the care plan for me every Ms patient.
00:14:20.190 --> 00:14:28.500
Wade Lightheart: is profound first off your story is incredible and I
can see why that would be activating so emotional because you know.
00:14:29.040 --> 00:14:39.990
Wade Lightheart: there's two two parts to it, one you're not just
someone with a diagnosis you're someone with a medical background, so
you understand the progressive degeneration, and what that's going to
look like over a period of time.
00:14:40.590 --> 00:15:02.070
Wade Lightheart: Based on prior research, you were of all the
medications the interactions the contraindications all that sort of
stuff and then you go off and kind of do some your own experiments and
start reversing what is generally believed to be a and reversible
condition is that not.
00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:04.140
Terry Wahls: Correct no absolutely and.
00:15:04.650 --> 00:15:13.380
Terry Wahls: I want to be clear at the time that I was doing all of
this, all of my physicians my primary care doc's all of the various
neurologists i've seen.
00:15:13.770 --> 00:15:26.490
Terry Wahls: were very clear MS is a progressive disease, the whole
point three says Wayne and I was thrilled to take these incredibly
toxic compounds that I knew had at a rate of causing.
00:15:27.990 --> 00:15:36.150
Terry Wahls: leukemia to percentage time you took it because I was,
and I was already seriously disabled I didn't want to become even more
disabled so.
00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:51.450
Terry Wahls: I was happy to take very toxic drugs that may be very l
in an effort to slow my decline, because this was all about slowing
the decline it as I improve, so my my face pain is gone first time in
27 years.
00:15:52.140 --> 00:16:00.090
Terry Wahls: My fatigue is gone first time in seven years i'm walking
again around the hospital and then around the block.
00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:09.930
Terry Wahls: But you know I don't know what it means, and in part of
what you you do when you have a progressive neurological disorder.
00:16:11.490 --> 00:16:24.090
Terry Wahls: Is you learn to let go of the future right and take each
day as an adult and that's a very healthy coping strategies so here I
00:16:25.140 --> 00:16:36.750
Terry Wahls: i've let go the future I don't know what it means i'm
clearly at a different place than I was a month ago, or ios six months
earlier but I don't know what it means I don't know.
00:16:38.070 --> 00:16:39.330
Terry Wahls: You know I didn't know what it means.
00:16:41.370 --> 00:16:42.780
Terry Wahls: until the day I rode my bike.
00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:44.310
Wade Lightheart: mm hmm.
00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:54.510
Terry Wahls: And that's when I understood in my heart and my bones,
that the current understanding of Ms was wrong and that.
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:03.240
Terry Wahls: I was recovering and who knew how much recovery might be
00:17:04.770 --> 00:17:18.150
Terry Wahls: You know i'll to note sort of funny story I in this
happened, the month previous pay and seen my neurologist you know
access home every six months.
00:17:18.630 --> 00:17:33.000
Terry Wahls: And I called the office to say you know there's been a
big change I should really see a physician, so they were happy to see
me that day as well, oh no, I want to come on Friday so know if
there's a big change, we should not wait till Friday Friday i'll be
00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:40.740
Terry Wahls: So you know I go in I i've walked in so i'm not in my
total Klein wheelchair i've seen in the office.
00:17:41.340 --> 00:17:54.240
Terry Wahls: In the waiting area and my the nurse comes out and she's
got a chart she's looking around and I realized oh I bet she's looking
for me and i'm not in the wheelchair, so I stand up go hey.
00:17:55.620 --> 00:17:57.750
Terry Wahls: Cindy over here, and she goes.
00:18:01.320 --> 00:18:04.140
Terry Wahls: And I was like oh my God you're walking.
00:18:05.730 --> 00:18:09.990
Terry Wahls: And so yeah I see my position is like oh my God you're
00:18:11.130 --> 00:18:22.680
Terry Wahls: he's thrilled you're showing what I might East him, you
know what i'm doing he still the startup got to get your MRI and see
what's going on and.
00:18:23.760 --> 00:18:28.830
Terry Wahls: we're both quite surprised there's no change on the MRI
and it comes back and says, you know.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:35.880
Terry Wahls: Of course there's no changing them right, these are old
lesions they haven't been active in a long time to still that active.
00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:42.360
Terry Wahls: But what you clearly have done is you have rewired your
00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:55.950
Terry Wahls: You are we miley and the MRI can't capture that but your
body clearly has rewired in re function your brain and your spinal
00:18:56.700 --> 00:19:12.300
Wade Lightheart: Can you explain to our listeners just what multiple
sclerosis is so that they understand what it what it what it is what
and then this breakthrough that you've.
00:19:12.300 --> 00:19:14.400
Wade Lightheart: Experienced why that's so profound.
00:19:14.850 --> 00:19:31.740
Terry Wahls: So it's a autoimmune process where your immune cells are
attacking your spinal cord in your brain first we said it was just the
installation the mile and part now realized in fact that they're
killing all sorts of parts of your brain astrocytes have been damaged.
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:43.290
Terry Wahls: glial cells are being damaged neurons are being damaged
axon to being damaged there are these acute inflammation episodes so
as a call to relapses that gradually improve.
00:19:43.980 --> 00:20:05.520
Terry Wahls: In addition, in the background, this is slow, steady
deterioration brain bind spinal cord shrinkage that is lit that is
associated with that cognitive decline we're seeing disability that
from which people do not recover so and I clearly have a lot of
00:20:06.600 --> 00:20:18.180
Terry Wahls: Had was being to have some cognitive decline in you know,
had had severe severe disability, I could not sit up in a regular
chair like I am right now, at that point.
00:20:20.310 --> 00:20:21.300
Terry Wahls: And so.
00:20:23.310 --> 00:20:28.650
Terry Wahls: What what my neurologist said very clearly is I had
00:20:32.580 --> 00:20:39.810
Terry Wahls: My brain and my spinal cord we didn't really have the
technology that could have measured mile and production.
00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:55.530
Terry Wahls: And so unfair, unfortunately, we had not sent me over to
the neuro ophthalmologist to get something called flicker fusion if we
had the product if they had done that previously and now.
00:20:56.040 --> 00:21:07.110
Terry Wahls: They probably would be able to measure the remote island
nation there, and my optic nerves, but you know we didn't have it,
because there's no reason to think you know it's going to be any
modulation occurring.
00:21:07.560 --> 00:21:24.300
Wade Lightheart: Right and that's an important distinction, I think,
for people to recognize is now that you've you've demonstrated that
it's possible well, we can start designing divine developing and
designing trials about how to measure this to see which might well.
00:21:24.870 --> 00:21:30.870
Terry Wahls: Right and that the end that's what we're doing so, the
next trial that we're doing.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.840
Terry Wahls: Well, maybe talk about the trial that we just published
and then we'll talk about the next one.
00:21:36.870 --> 00:21:40.290
Wade Lightheart: yeah let's let's do that let's we're getting ahead of
ourselves here because it's so.
00:21:40.290 --> 00:21:51.690
Wade Lightheart: exciting I just read through this trial now basically
if you want to kind of outline what you've been able to put forth here
in this in this discovery or.
00:21:52.230 --> 00:21:55.080
Terry Wahls: The sequence of doing research ghost.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:07.980
Terry Wahls: Typically, like this, an interesting case study, then an
interesting case series about a intervention that may be changes it
leads to an unexpected outcome.
00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:17.730
Terry Wahls: We then did what's called a single arm safety and
feasibility study so and that was my chair medicine that got me to do
00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:29.430
Terry Wahls: We wrote up a protocol that outlined what I did for
myself and then we enrolled 20 folks with secondary and primary
progressive Ms.
00:22:29.790 --> 00:22:40.350
Terry Wahls: Sure, expect any of them to get any better, and the fact
of all you can do is hold them flat, as a group that would be an
amazing home run and anybody improve that would be studying.
00:22:41.850 --> 00:22:54.570
Terry Wahls: So we enrolled them we showed that people could implement
it if the big the big side effect weight was if you're overweight or
obese you lost weight get back to a healthy weight.
00:22:56.280 --> 00:23:10.260
Terry Wahls: And I had to file reports every three months about the
weight loss that was occurring fatigue reduced quality of life,
improved in half of our folks motor function walking function
00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:17.730
Terry Wahls: So 50% of the people start to see improvements in motor
function function that that's really quite remarkable.
00:23:18.210 --> 00:23:23.610
Terry Wahls: cognition improved depression declined anxiety declined.
00:23:24.090 --> 00:23:30.870
Wade Lightheart: Now, where was in that trial, where you just
measuring dietary changes or Where are you adding the.
00:23:30.870 --> 00:23:31.800
Terry Wahls: stimulation well.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:32.490
Terry Wahls: You know.
00:23:33.330 --> 00:23:47.400
Terry Wahls: We, the program was to do could they do everything that I
did so there was diet, there was meditation those exercise electro
stimulation and supplements very complicated.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:50.760
Terry Wahls: In severely criticized I might get.
00:23:51.750 --> 00:23:53.070
Terry Wahls: Really criticize because.
00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:56.850
Terry Wahls: Well, if it works, who knows what the mechanism is and
i'm like.
00:23:57.330 --> 00:24:06.360
Terry Wahls: Who cares cares first, you have to show, can they do it,
and do you heard them and does it work, then you could do follow up
studies to figure out the mechanisms.
00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:25.800
Terry Wahls: Yes, so so get that first study, then we got some again
it was a small small study funded by my friends and Canada, the next
study again small pilot study now randomized and simplified so it's
just a diet.
00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:34.320
Terry Wahls: And we did relapsing remitting folks we looked at
fatigue, quality of life and motor function so again people could do
00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:43.110
Terry Wahls: Safe and less fatigue higher quality of life better motor
00:24:44.490 --> 00:24:46.440
Terry Wahls: Then we did a comparison of.
00:24:47.910 --> 00:24:55.800
Terry Wahls: The Paleo diet, the ketogenic diet to usual diet and
again showing that people could do it, it was safe well tolerated.
00:24:57.540 --> 00:25:01.320
Terry Wahls: The next study, which is a study that you read.
00:25:02.490 --> 00:25:10.620
Terry Wahls: Looked at the low saturated fat diet, which is a swank
diet and that was the only other diet that was out there for.
00:25:11.970 --> 00:25:14.730
Terry Wahls: people with MS and the modified Paleo diet.
00:25:16.320 --> 00:25:32.790
Terry Wahls: We had a 12 week observation phase where we looked at
people's all of the measures over that baseline period that run in
period to see if they were stable or not, and they were then we
randomize them.
00:25:34.080 --> 00:25:38.280
Terry Wahls: To either the low saturated fat diet, or the modified
Paleo diet.
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:48.840
Terry Wahls: They came back at 12 weeks repeated all the measures and
came back again in 12 weeks repeated all the measures, so we had 12
and 24 weeks worth of intervention.
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:55.500
Terry Wahls: were able to show is both sides were associated with a
significant reduction fatigue.
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.040
Terry Wahls: And improvement in quality of life.
00:26:00.270 --> 00:26:15.660
Terry Wahls: was being and they're really pretty cool in at 12 weeks
at 24 weeks walls had greater poverty reduction in some measures and
higher quality of life than swank and some measures.
00:26:17.010 --> 00:26:18.090
Wade Lightheart: Now that's physical abuse.
00:26:18.120 --> 00:26:20.520
Wade Lightheart: that's the reduced fat the saturated.
00:26:20.550 --> 00:26:20.910
00:26:22.170 --> 00:26:26.610
Wade Lightheart: And why is it, why is that do you understand why that
mechanism is.
00:26:26.790 --> 00:26:35.010
Terry Wahls: Well, so let's first think about what the two diets have
that similar and what is different.
00:26:35.070 --> 00:26:36.330
Wade Lightheart: Uniform I love that pro.
00:26:36.390 --> 00:26:40.650
Terry Wahls: Okay, so what's similar we had.
00:26:41.790 --> 00:26:55.830
Terry Wahls: Increased fruits and vegetables in both walls had more
fruits and vegetables and swag, but we also increase fruits and
vegetables, compared to baseline in there was less sugar less
hydrogenated fats.
00:26:57.120 --> 00:27:01.350
Terry Wahls: So less of those are harmful fats in both that.
00:27:02.580 --> 00:27:14.520
Terry Wahls: Now what is different yeah actually you're both walls and
sway had a so the swank group had on average about 10 grams of
saturated fat.
00:27:15.810 --> 00:27:26.130
Terry Wahls: The walls had on average 16 grams of saturated fat so
both diets are relatively low in saturated fat swank being a little
more so than the walls.
00:27:27.570 --> 00:27:47.790
Terry Wahls: The walls group had more fiber had more fermented foods,
I had little more structure the vegetables more green green leafy
vegetables more sulfur rich vegetables more deeply colored vegetables
and probably a greater variety of fruits and vegetables and a greater
variety of meats.
00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:59.010
Terry Wahls: What are the market as well, we were working on a grant
that will get submitted tomorrow that's going to look at.
00:28:00.120 --> 00:28:15.090
Terry Wahls: Changes in the microbiome well between the running face,
that is, the observation face in the diet intervention face, so we can
see how that changes both the swank died in the walls night we'll get
some biomarkers.
00:28:16.110 --> 00:28:22.980
Terry Wahls: In terms of the essential fatty acid metabolism and
neural filaments a marker of.
00:28:24.990 --> 00:28:36.780
Terry Wahls: of brain cell damage in osteopontin a marker of
metabolism and of inflammation and actually also.
00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:39.300
Terry Wahls: bone metabolism as well.
00:28:41.310 --> 00:28:52.650
Terry Wahls: And will correlate changes with dietary changes and
changes with clinical outcomes as well, so we'll begin to tease out.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:05.220
Terry Wahls: what's the mechanism of diet that yo it diet is is a huge
driver in changes in the microbiome so so my interpretation is.
00:29:07.650 --> 00:29:11.880
Terry Wahls: We ever genetic vulnerability, we have our existing
00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:19.920
Terry Wahls: In the two of them interact to create more inflammation
at the higher risk of autoimmunity and accelerated aging.
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:28.530
Terry Wahls: You change your diet you fertilize and starve out
different populations of the microbiome.
00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:42.480
Terry Wahls: And so, should I or I path deciding we starve out
disease, promoting microbes fertilize health marine microbes who then
as they eat up the food that we eat create.
00:29:43.800 --> 00:29:51.300
Terry Wahls: The these anti inflammation compounds that get into our
bloodstream and have a favorable impact on our physiology.
00:29:52.350 --> 00:30:02.970
Wade Lightheart: You know it's interesting that you've discovered that
because we've been in digestive health research, we have a partnership
with birch University in Croatia and we develop.
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:11.970
Wade Lightheart: A variety of probiotic agents in order to elicit the
same effects, and we do all kinds of interesting tests we add vitamins
to them, we give them.
00:30:12.270 --> 00:30:23.370
Wade Lightheart: Different types of food we blast them with EMF waves,
sometimes we do we'd all kinds of things to do this research to see
and we've come to the same conclusion that if you can.
00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:30.210
Wade Lightheart: feed the good guys and starve the bad guys we see
positive progressive changes.
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:38.460
Wade Lightheart: That enhance well being enhanced health or like
vitality immune system response these type of things and it's really
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.610
Wade Lightheart: That you've done this in a disease state because
we're obviously we're in health promotion.
00:30:45.540 --> 00:30:54.000
Wade Lightheart: we've got a recent book called from sick to
superhuman and our goal is to promote the individuals, the therapies,
the research.
00:30:54.540 --> 00:31:06.210
Wade Lightheart: That it takes people who might have a diagnosis that
says here's what it's going to be it's the end of the line for you
it's going to be progressive degenerative you're going to take these
toxic chemicals and drugs and whatever and then.
00:31:06.600 --> 00:31:25.140
Wade Lightheart: you're going to kind of waste away to say hey no, you
know what there are other options that you can take and experienced a
higher quality of life, at best, or worst and maybe even recover from
your condition or or delay it's it's a you know its destructive
00:31:25.620 --> 00:31:31.020
Terry Wahls: You know it my clinical practice in our clinical research
week we talked a lot about.
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:51.300
Terry Wahls: Maintaining your locus of control reflect on are you
doing all that you can to have the best life today and in the future,
and so I just think that is so important to remind people that you
always have choices.
00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:59.700
Terry Wahls: That you know what i'm eating is a big choice, yet, so I
can eat.
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:06.660
Terry Wahls: food that is delicious and health, promoting work eat
food that is delicious and disease, promoting.
00:32:10.860 --> 00:32:11.880
Wade Lightheart: it's very simple.
00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:25.080
Wade Lightheart: I want to talk about something that I think is really
important, before we get into some more topics and you mentioned
meditation and you, you mentioned.
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:30.690
Wade Lightheart: kind of letting go of the future, in other words just
dealing with things as they come up, which is.
00:32:31.110 --> 00:32:45.720
Wade Lightheart: kind of mindful Buddhist almost practice of being in
the moment and seeing the moment unfold into that and not getting
ahead of yourself or behind yourself What role do you think that
played in maybe.
00:32:46.950 --> 00:33:03.300
Wade Lightheart: How you approach this discoveries that you made
management of kind of you know, negative thinking or you know that
sort of like how important was that do you think to your recovery or
your your your discoveries.
00:33:03.630 --> 00:33:09.570
Terry Wahls: You know what else diagnosed my children are quite small
five and eight.
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:30.360
Terry Wahls: And at the time that I was diagnosed, I was still
athletic still skiing biking and hiking with them, but very quickly, I
cannot do that you know, I was having to reimagine parenting and as
having to reimagine my life, each year, as more functions were being
taken away.
00:33:31.410 --> 00:33:31.980
Terry Wahls: I.
00:33:32.040 --> 00:33:34.320
Wade Lightheart: Is what was that, like just.
00:33:34.470 --> 00:33:36.570
Wade Lightheart: From an emotional and psychological level.
00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:38.310
Terry Wahls: well.
00:33:40.470 --> 00:33:43.410
Terry Wahls: It was certainly incredibly challenging.
00:33:44.550 --> 00:33:45.030
Terry Wahls: i've.
00:33:46.110 --> 00:34:07.860
Terry Wahls: All my life I struggled with depression and, as a young
person I had made the astute observation that for me if I was athletic
my mood was much, much better I and so that drove me to get into
biking hiking running.
00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:16.350
Terry Wahls: martial arts and then, as I was losing that it's like you
know that was very, very tough.
00:34:17.610 --> 00:34:19.590
Terry Wahls: And thinking about.
00:34:23.040 --> 00:34:30.120
Terry Wahls: Is sort of very depressed out looking at okay how bad
could this be was I going to be filtered Bob.
00:34:31.140 --> 00:34:35.190
Terry Wahls: Was I going to have cognitive issues and then.
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.140
Terry Wahls: yeah you know within three years, you know, should I was
wheelchair bound.
00:34:42.270 --> 00:34:46.170
Terry Wahls: In the average it's 15 years, so I was.
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:51.090
Terry Wahls: extremely difficult.
00:34:52.830 --> 00:34:55.440
Terry Wahls: But I also fortunately.
00:34:56.550 --> 00:34:57.690
Terry Wahls: was impressed by.
00:34:58.740 --> 00:35:00.300
Terry Wahls: Victor frankel's book that.
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:10.110
Terry Wahls: Between every event in your life and your response to it
there's a space in that space, you can make a choice and it's the
choice that defines your character.
00:35:12.720 --> 00:35:22.440
Terry Wahls: And so my choice was Okay, you have two young kids who
are watching what you're doing and my choice to give up.
00:35:23.580 --> 00:35:31.680
Terry Wahls: And succumb to my depression and the dark thoughts that I
had would be modeling on life is tough you you give up.
00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:37.170
Terry Wahls: Or, I could make the choice of i'm going to do all that I
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:47.820
Terry Wahls: In which was, I want to keep working out whatever my
limited workout is going to be every day i'll keep going to work in
they're going to have to have chores.
00:35:49.050 --> 00:36:06.660
Terry Wahls: You know I grew up on a farm I understood that chores
were really very beneficial for children and young people growing up,
and so my wife right said, your kids will have to have chores and, of
course, as I became more disabled like it yep they have chores and
they have.
00:36:08.640 --> 00:36:13.680
Terry Wahls: It really is real work that needed to happen, I and so.
00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:22.980
Terry Wahls: that's sort of would chuckle like Okay, I guess, God
heard me and I said, my kids need to have chores and saw to it that
they were going to have chores.
00:36:25.020 --> 00:36:31.260
Wade Lightheart: Viktor frankl has impacted so many people in the book
man's search for meaning I think it's.
00:36:31.650 --> 00:36:32.700
Terry Wahls: Really striking found.
00:36:33.270 --> 00:36:44.340
Wade Lightheart: I want to extend one other piece to this because, to
your partner and i'm sure you had plenty of candid discussions inside
of that what was like that for you and what was your best.
00:36:45.660 --> 00:36:46.830
Wade Lightheart: Observation of what that.
00:36:46.830 --> 00:36:47.940
Wade Lightheart: was her.
00:36:49.170 --> 00:36:50.640
Terry Wahls: Well, I remember.
00:36:52.710 --> 00:37:11.310
Terry Wahls: She worked really hard at getting me to get to go out and
do things so she loves mountain biking and took me in my wheelchair
out to the park set set me up under the tree well she what mountain
biking so.
00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:22.860
Terry Wahls: much bigger deal for her, and then it came back and helps
me walk down to the water's edge and.
00:37:24.090 --> 00:37:25.140
Terry Wahls: got in the water, but.
00:37:27.720 --> 00:37:39.000
Terry Wahls: You know, a wonderful commitment just another example,
all that she had done for me and then, when she was out mountain
biking in the winter.
00:37:40.620 --> 00:37:42.690
Terry Wahls: She broke her ankle.
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:46.020
Terry Wahls: It would have to have so.
00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:52.110
Terry Wahls: After our two kids were going off to Sweden.
00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:05.310
Terry Wahls: For a week to be with friends, so we sent sent them off
we showed them that you know jack and I would be fine jack header
surgery to have her ankle set and the pins set.
00:38:06.390 --> 00:38:06.990
Terry Wahls: And i'm.
00:38:08.100 --> 00:38:11.940
Terry Wahls: taking care of jack getting her her pain pills.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.150
Terry Wahls: And our friends were bringing over.
00:38:16.170 --> 00:38:23.040
Terry Wahls: takeout for us so so we could eat and the week that we
had planned to have off with each other.
00:38:24.210 --> 00:38:30.540
Terry Wahls: While the kids were in Sweden, of course, was quite
different was giving her pain pills were watching.
00:38:32.010 --> 00:38:33.660
Terry Wahls: netflix movies.
00:38:35.100 --> 00:38:39.810
Terry Wahls: And I just felt immensely grateful that I could finally
be taking care of her.
00:38:41.790 --> 00:38:42.600
Wade Lightheart: You know.
00:38:44.190 --> 00:38:57.120
Wade Lightheart: One of the things that i've noticed, I went through a
tragedy at an early age, my sister was diagnosed with hodgkin's
disease and progressively until she died at age 22 she was four years,
my senior and the striking.
00:38:59.070 --> 00:39:10.410
Wade Lightheart: component of being subjected to a serious medical
condition and all of its dire consequences and everything that kind of
disrupts the natural flow of life.
00:39:11.040 --> 00:39:27.480
Wade Lightheart: There is this other side of it, where you see the
outpouring of love and connection and humanity and kind of the noble
aspects that inspire all of us to you know it's.
00:39:27.930 --> 00:39:37.860
Wade Lightheart: I call it the sublime or to see that there are other
energies or forces beyond our intellect that have that define what it
is to be a human.
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:47.070
Wade Lightheart: And there's these beautiful little moments, whether
that's in the patient rooms, or maybe with a nurse or a doctor.
00:39:47.490 --> 00:39:56.460
Wade Lightheart: or a loved one or a friend, where they going above
and beyond in the care of either the extended family or with the
individual and.
00:39:57.420 --> 00:40:16.620
Wade Lightheart: it's if you've been in that situation it's hard to
describe it's transcendent because you just see pure kindness and pure
love and concern for other people and it's it's inspired me in my own
life to continue to advocate you know.
00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:26.130
Wade Lightheart: Then commit to helping other people live a healthier
and better life, because I saw the impact that well your health isn't
a guarantee and your life isn't a guarantee at a very early age.
00:40:27.330 --> 00:40:31.500
Wade Lightheart: How has this situation with yourself.
00:40:32.520 --> 00:40:35.790
Wade Lightheart: Inspired you your research and what.
00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:46.050
Wade Lightheart: We see happen as a way of you know, providing hope
and opportunity for more of those moments for other people.
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:56.550
Terry Wahls: You know, when I had my remarkable recovery my chair of
medicine at the university called me and told me first to get a case
report written up.
00:40:57.720 --> 00:41:03.060
Terry Wahls: In like on myself so yeah yeah this is your job, your
assignment for the years right I got that done.
00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:12.360
Terry Wahls: Then, my got that published he called me back and say
okay Now I want you to safety and feasibility study testing out this
00:41:13.590 --> 00:41:24.360
Terry Wahls: You know there's and I said well that's not the research
that I do it goes i'll get you the mentors that's your assignment and
that's what you'll do so I saluted that Okay, Sir, and.
00:41:25.410 --> 00:41:41.550
Terry Wahls: Then, as people at the university some books were
intensely critical, but what I was doing I in as I published my
research and published my book, and my Ted talk I got all sorts of
hate mail immense criticism.

00:41:42.810 --> 00:41:46.110
Terry Wahls: And so I do these interviews had say well.
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:58.350
Terry Wahls: You know, obviously, obviously I want you to do what you
think is ethically right, but I will tell you that I remember what
it's like to be disabled.
00:41:59.700 --> 00:42:17.160
Terry Wahls: And that I need to tell people what my story was and the
research that i'm doing, and they can decide how comfortable, they are
with eating more vegetables meditating exercising asking for physical
therapy in work with your medical team.
00:42:18.810 --> 00:42:21.300
Terry Wahls: And i'll keep putting that information out there.
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:34.020
Terry Wahls: And so many times, I was you know ripped to shreds called
unprofessional in dangerous in worse, and I would just call me set you
00:42:34.470 --> 00:42:45.930
Terry Wahls: Absolutely do what you think is ethically right, and I am
i'll be to do what I think is ethically right absolutely I will
disclose my conflicts of interest, I will disclose.
00:42:46.650 --> 00:42:59.670
Terry Wahls: Where the researcher that a caution people to work with
they're treating physicians and they can decide how dangerous
vegetables are how dangerous meditation is it how dangerous exercises
for that.
00:43:01.290 --> 00:43:11.010
Terry Wahls: I just call me state those things, and then you know
people would have their intense reaction like yo ever wonder I just
saying like.
00:43:11.520 --> 00:43:27.180
Terry Wahls: Well, and how would you feel if I came started saying I
could do all these things to treat rheumatoid arthritis and say, well,
if that got my rheumatoid arthritis patients eat more vegetables to
meditate exercise, I would say hello yeah.
00:43:30.330 --> 00:43:33.150
Wade Lightheart: i'm gonna ask I just a big thing because we're living
00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:46.020
Wade Lightheart: An interesting time right now, and there is a
significant condemnation of certain narratives around medical and i've
been following.
00:43:47.370 --> 00:43:51.810
Wade Lightheart: The weinstein's I don't know if you know who they are
their evolutionary biologists.
00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:59.310
Wade Lightheart: That were essentially kicked out of evergreen
university and ended up starting their own podcast because they were
willing to challenge.
00:43:59.790 --> 00:44:05.370
Wade Lightheart: Some of the negative criticism that was directed
towards the research and and heather and.
00:44:06.210 --> 00:44:13.620
Wade Lightheart: And Brett the husband and wife team they go through
the science currently with the pandemic that we're dealing with today.
00:44:14.070 --> 00:44:24.930
Wade Lightheart: And they take it apart like reasonable rational
scientists with skepticism and scientific method night as a non
scientist person or I don't have a medical background.
00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:38.310
Wade Lightheart: I find it very refreshing to be able to kind of
borrow on their intellectual acumen and they're structured thinking to
go through this, and they also have received extreme levels of
00:44:38.790 --> 00:44:58.230
Wade Lightheart: And i've interviewed a number of doctors, who have
made breakthrough discoveries we've had them on the podcast and
variety of conditions and they to get subjected, particularly to very
vicious attacks from their peers, why is that do you think is
something threatening about it or.
00:44:58.950 --> 00:44:59.550
Terry Wahls: Explain.
00:44:59.610 --> 00:45:00.750
Terry Wahls: The biology of what.
00:45:00.810 --> 00:45:05.880
Terry Wahls: That happens i'm going to invite you to reflect pretty
carefully we'll talk about this.
00:45:07.560 --> 00:45:09.240
Terry Wahls: sensory input, as it comes up.
00:45:10.860 --> 00:45:30.900
Terry Wahls: to buy spinal cord and brain is an overwhelming by him of
information so at various points, the amount of information that gets
through keeps getting cut down to smaller and smaller amounts so that
my vision my hearing my sensory my sense of space.
00:45:32.100 --> 00:45:41.040
Terry Wahls: Is a tiny fraction less than half a percent of what's
coming in and that and as infants, we learn to do that, so we can.
00:45:42.180 --> 00:45:56.880
Terry Wahls: cope, we can feed ourselves interact with the world on on
just a tiny amount of information in we learn to do that in our social
constructs first in our family unit in our expanded.
00:45:57.990 --> 00:46:03.930
Terry Wahls: universe of friends colleagues in our educational life
and then in our work life.
00:46:05.070 --> 00:46:16.470
Terry Wahls: And so we we learned to interact with a tiny amount of
information for my relationship with my my spouse my kids my family.
00:46:17.580 --> 00:46:32.670
Terry Wahls: I, and so is information that comes in that doesn't
conform to my understanding of the world, it doesn't get to my cortex
it doesn't get to my higher and say it's been pruned out and then what
apply does get to my cortex I ignore it.
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:36.240
Terry Wahls: Because it doesn't it doesn't match my to save the world.
00:46:37.470 --> 00:46:40.380
Terry Wahls: And then I may ridicule it I may push back.
00:46:41.490 --> 00:46:50.520
Terry Wahls: And then occasionally there's enough information that I
realize maybe I need to change my understanding of the world.
00:46:51.990 --> 00:47:03.870
Terry Wahls: And we will do that with minus eight of my best friend my
spouse my kids my work environments my professional environment until
mindset of the world is somehow shatter.
00:47:05.610 --> 00:47:25.950
Terry Wahls: So of course our anyone who is an innovator, who thinks
of something really new and different is going to face that kind of
resistance, the innovators, in order to be successful, have to be okay
with being ridiculed rejected potentially burned at the stake mm hmm.
00:47:27.330 --> 00:47:31.110
Terry Wahls: And you know part of the reason that I think i've been
00:47:32.130 --> 00:47:54.930
Terry Wahls: And wanting to hang in here with this is that I had this
internal moral obligation, because my own experience, the other reason
that i'm successful is i'm a lesbian, and so I had to as part of my
evolution as a emotional adult is it to let go of societal
expectations of May I finally.
00:47:56.190 --> 00:48:02.550
Terry Wahls: Let all of that roll off my back and became comfortable

with who, I am in my family structure.
00:48:03.750 --> 00:48:12.090
Terry Wahls: In being able to eventually get comfortable with that I
think has made it easy for me to let the criticism that i've gotten.
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:25.050
Terry Wahls: and probably another thing that's helpful is I am sort of
clueless My family has found it far more stressful for the amount of
criticism i've gotten over the years that I have because I just.
00:48:26.640 --> 00:48:27.690
Terry Wahls: focused on.
00:48:27.810 --> 00:48:28.590
00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:36.060
Terry Wahls: You know my work my family what i'm doing and i'm
oblivious to the world.
00:48:38.580 --> 00:48:46.590
Terry Wahls: And so i've i've learned to pay more attention to the
world professionally but i'm still more oblivious than many of my
00:48:49.200 --> 00:48:55.590
Wade Lightheart: it's a very important distinction, I think, for
people to understand that.
00:48:57.120 --> 00:49:00.180
Wade Lightheart: Much of our world, I think it was.
00:49:02.970 --> 00:49:05.070
Wade Lightheart: reminded Maharishi that says.
00:49:06.180 --> 00:49:10.170
Wade Lightheart: there's no sense of being upset of the world, because
the world he perceived doesn't actually exist.
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:14.280
Wade Lightheart: enough.
00:49:14.640 --> 00:49:25.380
Wade Lightheart: That you brought this up is on Sunday, I was at my
meditation Center and the monk was giving a discussion about the.
00:49:25.890 --> 00:49:30.360
Wade Lightheart: amount of information that's coming into our nervous
system and how much is if it's actually filtered out.
00:49:30.930 --> 00:49:45.150
Wade Lightheart: And the component of meditation is to increase in
open up one's awareness, to increase the opportunity for us to expand
our consciousness or awareness into other areas, yet we live in a
world today.
00:49:46.230 --> 00:49:59.400
Wade Lightheart: Which is fascinating because we've never had more
information coming through to us yet specialization has increased as
00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:10.500
Wade Lightheart: improves and technological innovation so, for
example, 100 years ago I needed to know how to chop wood and I needed
to know how to farm and I needed to know how to maybe.
00:50:11.490 --> 00:50:23.910
Wade Lightheart: Properly hunt or clean animals and how to fix my
house and it was a very more rural setting and today, you can have a
job in in an urban area let's say as a cashier.
00:50:24.570 --> 00:50:30.750
Wade Lightheart: And you literally don't have to know anything other
than how to punch numbers into the code and what's up and so.
00:50:31.170 --> 00:50:39.210
Wade Lightheart: The the interesting component as we've developed so
much technologically we in and we get so much more information there's
almost like.
00:50:39.630 --> 00:50:57.990
Wade Lightheart: As a response there's a drilling down to narrowness
do you think that is something that needs to be identified in the
medical community or do you think there's a way that we can cultivate
innovation in geniuses in a way that doesn't.
00:50:59.130 --> 00:51:03.360
Wade Lightheart: draw the ire of people who are performing functions
within that field.
00:51:04.590 --> 00:51:05.310
Terry Wahls: I think.
00:51:06.510 --> 00:51:17.370
Terry Wahls: Anyone who's truly innovative is going to draw the ire
because it's very uncomfortable to have to abandon my constructs of
how I understand the world.
00:51:18.450 --> 00:51:34.950
Terry Wahls: None of us want to do that I don't want to do that, you
don't want to do that, we won't easily do that, so I don't think it's
possible to have innovation that without facing ridicule and rejection
at first and then either your ideas pan out.
00:51:36.240 --> 00:51:37.740
Terry Wahls: Or the suppressed.
00:51:39.690 --> 00:51:46.530
Terry Wahls: And so you keep doing the experiments, I have.
00:51:48.420 --> 00:52:01.260
Terry Wahls: A unique story, you know it actually the university's
sort of commented on this, because most of my research has been funded
by philanthropic gifts.
00:52:02.730 --> 00:52:05.640
Terry Wahls: From people whose lives, I have touched.
00:52:06.660 --> 00:52:14.370
Terry Wahls: Who then afterwards, who happen to have money, and so you
know I believe what you're doing a turtle like to support your
00:52:15.990 --> 00:52:34.260
Terry Wahls: And so here's a gift for your next project, and so the
second time that happened, but we got a six figure donation to my
research lab the dean of the College called me and I had a meeting I
thought your God yo who have I pissed off now.
00:52:36.990 --> 00:52:37.380
Wade Lightheart: Of course.
00:52:37.410 --> 00:52:38.430
Terry Wahls: And it was like.
00:52:39.870 --> 00:52:43.620
Terry Wahls: This has never happened at the University of iowa So what
are you doing.
00:52:45.030 --> 00:52:59.850
Terry Wahls: And you know we continue to have some remarkable
philanthropic support, which is a that has allowed me to invest it to
do some really interesting and small projects and now we'll be doing
this much larger project.
00:53:01.770 --> 00:53:02.730
Terry Wahls: Because.
00:53:04.080 --> 00:53:25.110
Terry Wahls: i've made a diff I have a protocol that has had some
dramatic impact on people who have resources, then, to come back to me
in my lab say you know what we like what you do a talk to us about
some ideas and we think we'd like to give you another larger gift.
00:53:27.090 --> 00:53:28.050
Terry Wahls: And so.
00:53:29.100 --> 00:53:46.470
Terry Wahls: That allows me in some ways to be vastly more innovative
than folks who have to write grants that have to convince their peers
have a newly innovative idea who can't accept new big innovations,
they can accept small incremental.
00:53:47.490 --> 00:53:48.630
Terry Wahls: Partial ovations.
00:53:49.290 --> 00:53:51.030
Terry Wahls: You know and and what i've done.
00:53:51.960 --> 00:54:07.050
Terry Wahls: With my multi multi modal studies was a huge big
innovation that was completely utterly rejected by all the NIH folks
in 2010 when we're writing those grants.
00:54:08.370 --> 00:54:15.960
Terry Wahls: But now you're in 2011 these multimodal studies are being
done, and our work has been cited.
00:54:17.100 --> 00:54:17.550
Terry Wahls: Beautiful.
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:30.570
Wade Lightheart: I was also listening to Eric weinstein that's brett's
brother he runs a podcast called dark horses and advanced physicist a
super genius and he was sharing how.
00:54:31.200 --> 00:54:45.240
Wade Lightheart: Many of the current research grant organizations are
stifling a lot of the development of science and what he felt that
there was between him and his brother and a sister they had three.
00:54:47.220 --> 00:54:57.330
Wade Lightheart: Human human transformational discoveries that was
essentially being suppressed, and he says, well, if you do the math of
how many other researchers that could be.
00:54:57.690 --> 00:55:04.080
Wade Lightheart: Situated in this, I think a lot of people and, and
this is what I love about alternative funding.
00:55:04.560 --> 00:55:14.610
Wade Lightheart: That the NIH over the last 30 years I think has given
out somewhere around $3 trillion in research grants, but they develop
they define what gets.
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:23.940
Wade Lightheart: What gets accepted and what doesn't but now there's
these other funding options that you kind of illustrated with yourself
that are allowing researchers to maybe go outside of.
00:55:24.330 --> 00:55:34.890
Wade Lightheart: The normal parameters using science, but to kind of
create exponential growth, do you see that as the future for research
that you're doing or expanding teachers in the field.
00:55:35.040 --> 00:55:38.190
Terry Wahls: So, so I think that peer review.
00:55:39.270 --> 00:55:41.550
Terry Wahls: incremental approach has certainly.
00:55:42.780 --> 00:55:48.180
Terry Wahls: hugely deepen understanding of physiology in very
wonderful ways.
00:55:51.030 --> 00:56:11.820
Terry Wahls: The ability to do what i'm doing his also ultra
understanding in really profound ways I in that as been on the basis
of this philanthropic gifts because we've made an impact on the lives
of people have to have a lot of money.
00:56:13.560 --> 00:56:28.710
Terry Wahls: And you know when i'm in these meetings with my other
scientific colleagues who are doing dietary research in there right
yeah i'm writing grants, along with them and sore they were talking
about the issued struggles to get through to peer reviews.
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:33.210
Terry Wahls: To do the innovative work I and.
00:56:34.470 --> 00:56:43.680
Terry Wahls: When I reflect on what i'm going to be able to launch
into next because i've had i'm so blessed to have this philanthropic
00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:53.910
Terry Wahls: And I think the bigger breakthroughs will come through
from folks who have access to philanthropic support.
00:56:54.630 --> 00:56:57.420
Wade Lightheart: know, can you talk about what's coming down the pipe
00:56:57.450 --> 00:56:57.870
00:56:59.370 --> 00:57:00.000
Terry Wahls: it's very exciting.
00:57:01.200 --> 00:57:12.660
Terry Wahls: So again, this is from a grateful patient who really
believes in what we're doing we're going to enroll people.
00:57:13.680 --> 00:57:32.370
Terry Wahls: with multiple sclerosis relapse remitting who want to do
a dietary approach they'll need to be agreed to be randomized between
a ketogenic diet, a modified Paleo diet and dietary guidelines will
give them support.
00:57:33.750 --> 00:57:43.860
Terry Wahls: over that time period, we will follow them over two years
we will be measuring did they actually implement the diet.
00:57:44.310 --> 00:58:00.450
Terry Wahls: What what are they eating so will will know about dietary
adherence we will know about clinical outcomes in terms of walking
function vision function hand function will understand patient
reported outcomes in terms of mood.
00:58:03.570 --> 00:58:11.610
Terry Wahls: Processing speed or memory fatigue, quality of life, we
will have biomarkers as well.
00:58:13.200 --> 00:58:13.740
Terry Wahls: and
00:58:15.930 --> 00:58:34.380
Terry Wahls: This will be the first time that will have had a study of
this size for two years, that will be able to look at changes in
clinical outcomes changes in biomarkers whilst be looking at
myelination along the way.
00:58:35.610 --> 00:58:36.180
Terry Wahls: as well.
00:58:37.680 --> 00:58:46.350
Terry Wahls: And we're will be freezing microbiome specimens will be
freezing blood specimens so at the end.
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:55.200
Terry Wahls: We will ask bill to write another grant to go back and
say let's look at the molecular mechanisms of what is going on and
00:58:56.250 --> 00:58:59.820
Terry Wahls: So this will be absolutely transformational.
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:05.910
Terry Wahls: A smaller study that may be even more transformational in
some ways.
00:59:05.910 --> 00:59:08.640
Terry Wahls: Ways it may be looking at an.
00:59:10.380 --> 00:59:21.510
Terry Wahls: An online course that we've created that teaches people
through virtual technology such as this, how to improve diet.
00:59:22.770 --> 00:59:24.600
Terry Wahls: Stress reduction and exercise.
00:59:25.620 --> 00:59:30.060
Terry Wahls: In these supplemental non diet not exercise things that
you can be doing.
00:59:31.710 --> 00:59:44.310
Terry Wahls: And we'll see that impact on MS patients with we're so
that cities approved, we are talking now with our cancer Center and.
00:59:45.600 --> 00:59:57.690
Terry Wahls: We anticipate having it studied in cancer we're also
talking to rheumatology folks and saying this in rheumatology patients
as well, so if we can show anticipate that will we will build a show.
00:59:58.170 --> 01:00:10.590
Terry Wahls: That we can teach these concepts online and have
improvement in dietary intake improvement in patient reported outcomes
Now this is.
01:00:12.120 --> 01:00:13.020
Terry Wahls: The sky's the limit.
01:00:14.550 --> 01:00:19.170
Terry Wahls: We can transform more lives, this can be.
01:00:22.050 --> 01:00:26.130
Terry Wahls: expanded its it has no limits.
01:00:27.180 --> 01:00:34.080
Wade Lightheart: You know, this is one of the beauty beautiful things
about the Internet and the distribution of information is once.
01:00:35.190 --> 01:00:45.750
Wade Lightheart: A demonstrated will protocol breakthrough can be
developed, you can share that with a wide variety of people who might
not have both the medical.
01:00:45.750 --> 01:00:54.000
Wade Lightheart: Or you know the or the even the knowledge of that by
you know hey they find out about it, they can experiment they take it
to their professional medical science said hey i'd like to.
01:00:54.570 --> 01:00:58.920
Wade Lightheart: i'd like to experiment with this on our own, on my
own Is that what you anticipate happening.
01:00:59.310 --> 01:01:03.930
Terry Wahls: Well, what we certainly anticipate is that this makes it
so much more available to.
01:01:04.950 --> 01:01:12.090
Terry Wahls: Rural communities to small small communities that don't
have access to professionals that could.
01:01:13.050 --> 01:01:35.760
Terry Wahls: say a dietitian or to those populations, for whom
transport into a clinic is a huge difficulty because of their motor
disabilities or access to transportation, so I think this makes it so
much more readily available and it's standardized is the education.
01:01:37.110 --> 01:01:38.730
Terry Wahls: So I mean, I think this will be.
01:01:40.020 --> 01:01:42.960
Terry Wahls: You know, huge huge huge technology.
01:01:44.370 --> 01:01:56.910
Terry Wahls: You know that the next the other studies that were the
grant next grant that i'm writing and we'll see if I can get this
funded by grants or, if not we'll be going back through philanthropic
01:01:58.230 --> 01:02:03.810
Terry Wahls: When can people stop the disease modifying drug
treatment, but when can you do a point is that appropriate.
01:02:04.620 --> 01:02:14.550
Terry Wahls: So there are a couple of studies that are underway, now
that are randomized and you stop where you stay on there's no
intervention to make it more likely that the stoppers will do okay.
01:02:15.060 --> 01:02:31.740
Terry Wahls: um so of course you know you know me i'm like well
there's a lot we can do to make it more likely that if you stop you're
going to be okay, and so we're working on designing studies that could
make it more likely that the stoppers will in fact be okay.
01:02:32.310 --> 01:02:50.220
Wade Lightheart: that's a that's a really huge piece, because I guess
once a once a person has a diagnosis and is going by standard Karen is
on a pathway through their physician, many of the physicians are
remiss to kind of stop that because of the you know the the legal and.
01:02:50.610 --> 01:02:52.740
Wade Lightheart: Well, that would be so.
01:02:52.920 --> 01:03:10.500
Terry Wahls: The current standard of care for an autoimmune disease is
once you're on a disease modifying treatment you're on that the rest
of your life or maybe until you're in your 60s, I should, is there a
way to identify who could be weaned off safely.
01:03:11.700 --> 01:03:20.400
Terry Wahls: And so I think that's a really important question i've
been talking with my neurology colleagues who agree like yep that's a
really important question.
01:03:20.790 --> 01:03:27.990
Terry Wahls: we've been working on that study design and we will be
putting that grant forward.
01:03:29.040 --> 01:03:30.060
Terry Wahls: very excited about that.
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:32.070
Wade Lightheart: So.
01:03:33.120 --> 01:03:48.480
Wade Lightheart: i'm gonna i'm gonna invite you know that you can you
said that you had to give away the future but i'm going to ask you,
what do you see happening in the future, so I could ask you to go out
there, what would you like to see happen or what would you like to
01:03:49.620 --> 01:03:55.800
Wade Lightheart: come out of your research your work and that of your
colleagues in this area, what do you, what do you hope to happen.
01:03:56.220 --> 01:03:57.420
Terry Wahls: Well, you know, I think.
01:03:59.040 --> 01:04:14.850
Terry Wahls: What I see is more dietary multimodal interventions that
there is a greater recognition that human physiology is incredibly
complicated that single drug based steps.
01:04:15.630 --> 01:04:31.200
Terry Wahls: compounds that impact our physiology in one pathway very
effectively is not going to restore health, but if we're going to
restore health we're going to have to work on a comprehensive
multimodal support.
01:04:31.860 --> 01:04:41.460
Terry Wahls: and that it will make it even more complicated and messy
is that if I were to do a multimodal intervention that addresses diet
lifestyle exercise.
01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:53.670
Terry Wahls: I need to allow for self determination, because if i'm
going to have you adapt this multimodal stuff for the next year or two
01:04:54.420 --> 01:05:06.240
Terry Wahls: I need to design a method of support that gives you
autonomy to select elements of what is the meditative practice you
gonna do what is the exercise gonna do what is.
01:05:07.110 --> 01:05:16.500
Terry Wahls: The dietary plan that the menu of what I offer that you
can do so that we're designing a lifestyle intervention that.
01:05:17.040 --> 01:05:30.780
Terry Wahls: meets my targets but you've had autonomy and design it
what to meet your needs and your family needs that's messy complicated
hard science to do that we're going to have to work out.
01:05:32.340 --> 01:05:44.490
Terry Wahls: But I think it's really arbitrary say you got to do
ballet as your workout you're going to have to do the modified Paleo
diet, as your workout and you're going to have to do a mantra based
meditation meditation.
01:05:47.100 --> 01:06:00.840
Terry Wahls: That doesn't allow for autonomy that's going to make it
much harder to adapt this new behavior and sustain if we can
personalize this for that you have a variety of acceptable.
01:06:01.890 --> 01:06:08.640
Terry Wahls: strategies that you could use to hit the targets that we
lay out, I think that would be more successful.
01:06:09.930 --> 01:06:14.400
Terry Wahls: My team and I are thinking deeply about how we could
design that.
01:06:16.500 --> 01:06:34.260
Terry Wahls: What are the parameters that could work in what are the
standardized target so it's reproducible science, this will be messy
it'll be difficult, and I think one of the reasons i'm so innovative
is I don't have a PhD I have an md.
01:06:35.460 --> 01:06:54.540
Terry Wahls: I have a depth of clinical experience I have ideas now
hire my PhD say Okay, we take these ideas we're going to keep working
on it till we come up with a rigorous approach that's reproducible
that honors the basic framework that i've laid out yet and.
01:06:56.490 --> 01:07:01.890
Terry Wahls: My pitch, these are coming along they're like okay Okay,
I think we can do this.
01:07:05.310 --> 01:07:09.150
Terry Wahls: You know I realized, now that if i'd had my PhD.
01:07:10.860 --> 01:07:29.430
Terry Wahls: I wouldn't be as innovative I would be more in this yet
the the the intervention has to be exactly this intervention and we're
not going to allow for any patient autonomy and self determination,
because that is how research is done.
01:07:30.030 --> 01:07:32.250
Terry Wahls: Correct that is not how life is lived.
01:07:32.550 --> 01:07:39.450
Wade Lightheart: Right PhD research is you're controlling all the
parameters in life it's impossible to control all the parameters
01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:53.070
Terry Wahls: So if we're going to ask someone to do this for a year or
two years, we need to think about that self determination aspect, a
little bit more.
01:07:54.510 --> 01:08:03.630
Wade Lightheart: last question before you we go you've been so
generous with your time and your information, your research, and I
know there's going to be some listeners here they're going to wonder
about this.
01:08:04.710 --> 01:08:13.170
Wade Lightheart: would like for you to speak to someone who might have
multiple sclerosis or someone who might know some with multiple
01:08:13.650 --> 01:08:26.700
Wade Lightheart: or looking at options, what would you say to them as
someone who has you know, been subjected to the to the diagnosis saw
the degeneration and found a way to turn it around and doing research,
what would you say to that person.
01:08:28.350 --> 01:08:41.400
Terry Wahls: So I had really profound disability and profound levels
of pain and was able to have a dramatic impact by addressing what was
under my control.
01:08:42.570 --> 01:08:56.220
Terry Wahls: And then, working with my position to adjust my
medications appropriately we seen that in others, and of course we
don't know for you what level of recovery might be possible.
01:08:57.630 --> 01:09:08.010
Terry Wahls: But, are you doing all that you can, in terms of
improving your diet, adding a stress reduction practice thinking about
movement practice.
01:09:09.270 --> 01:09:15.960
Terry Wahls: We, we have a variety of tools that can help you in that
journey would love to be support.
01:09:18.630 --> 01:09:36.630
Terry Wahls: it's not just Ms it's part of the proteome it's other
autoimmune conditions there's so much that can be done to slow your
decline and often rest in reverse the disability we'd love to help you
in we could.
01:09:38.460 --> 01:09:47.130
Terry Wahls: We have a variety of resources for you at Terry walls
that calm try, while still be a challenge COM.
01:09:49.350 --> 01:09:58.710
Wade Lightheart: Dr dairy walls it's an honor and a privilege for you
to join us today on the awesome health podcast and I am inspired by
your story.
01:09:59.220 --> 01:10:10.650
Wade Lightheart: and your research and your work and i'm wishing you
continued success in this journey, I know you're making a big impact
for a lot of people and that's a very noble cause, thank you for your
01:10:12.120 --> 01:10:13.710
Terry Wahls: Much love to you and your team as well.
01:10:15.450 --> 01:10:22.920
Wade Lightheart: There you have it folks another edition of the
awesome health podcast just absolutely remarkable work about what's
01:10:23.160 --> 01:10:35.580
Wade Lightheart: actually know, we believe that you can go from six to

superhuman Dr Terry walls is someone who has is a living example of
the possibilities of great diet.
01:10:36.390 --> 01:10:45.780
Wade Lightheart: meditation and an iron will to discover the
possibilities of human physiology Thank you so much for joining us
today, we appreciate.
01:10:46.590 --> 01:10:57.540
Wade Lightheart: You listening, if you like it, you can share it and,
of course, check all of the information on the show notes, if you or
someone you love is suffering from one of these autoimmune conditions
like multiple sclerosis.
01:10:57.840 --> 01:11:06.000
Wade Lightheart: Make sure that you check out Dr Terry walls and her
research thanks so much for joining us today i'm at light heart from
by optimize there's see you next time.
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