David Tomen knows firsthand the power of nootropics. He’s considered by many to be the foremost nootropics expert in the field. He’s the author of Head First as well as the founder of the Nootropics Expert web site, a site devoted to optimizing your brain with nootropic supplements. He joins us today to talk about the power of nootropics from stacking to dosage, and much more.
David’s journey began when he was diagnosed with adult ADD and put on Ritalin. It seemed to really help his ability to focus, until 2012 when he ended up in the ER. He had a laundry list of symptoms about 2 pages long and his doctors did extensive tests (including for Alzheimer’s and other forms of dementia, which came back negative). The only diagnosis he was given was hypothyroid.
Determined to find a natural way to treat his attention issues along with his memory function, he went into full exploration mode of nootroopics. He tried multiple combinations of supplements, various dosages and lifestyle changes until he found what works best for him. Today he has a specific stack he takes every day and also uses his years of extensive research and experimentation to help others through his books, podcasts, copywriting and personal consultations.
On today’s Awesome Health, David tells us more about what stack he uses and why we often need stacks (and not just one pill) to feel better, and the importance of dosage. One of the first things we talk about is lion’s mane, a nootropic that has become increasingly popular of late. The reason why he recommends lion’s mane to people is because it’s one of the rock stars of the nootropic world. When it comes to boosting brain-derived neurotropic factor (BDNF), something we need for things like neuroplasticity and synaptic plasticity, lion’s mane is a great option.
David goes on to explain what neuroplasticity and synaptic plasticity are, how he has come up with proper dosages for humans and why dosage is so critical. For example, lion’s mane dosage is anywhere from 1000 to 2000 milligrams, once or twice a day. He personally prefers 5,000mg, and if he’s doing intense brain training he’ll increase the dose to 5 grams a day for a couple of weeks before, during and after the training. While lion’s mane is often helpful for intense brain function, he cautions there is no one pill solution to everything. To get our desired results we often have to try a combination of stacked supplements with differing dosages.
On this show, you’ll also hear his thoughts on CBD and Vitamin C. David is a wealth of knowledge in the field of nootropics so get ready to expand your horizons and join us for episode 58 of Awesome Health Podcast.
- Nootropics Expert Website: https://nootropicsexpert.com/
- Head First, by David Tomen
- Book a consult with David
- David Tomen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DavidTomen
- David Tomen’s YouTube channel
- Nootropics Expert Facebook page
- Amazing Herbs Egyptian Black Seed Oil
- Dr. Linus Pauling’s Orthomolecular Psychiatry
Read The Episode Transcript:
Wade Lightheart: Good morning. Good afternoon. And good evening. It's Wade T Lightheart from the Awesome Health Podcast for BiOptimizers and we have got an action packed session today because we're going to talk about nootropics. Boy, is this a topic that is rapidly exciting? It's growing. People want to be smarter. People want to avoid memory loss. They want to get out of brain fog and fatigue. And if there's ever been a time that you need to be sharper and get the edge now is it. And today we have actually two special guests. Of course, we've got Matt Gallant the co-founder of BiOptimizers. Wade Lightheart: Heally excited to have Matt here. He joins us periodically for these kinds of action, powerful programs. And then we've also got David Tomen and his journey with nootropic supplements began when he was diagnosed with adult ADD. After years of buying self help books and even suffering from depression over his inability to focus, Ritalin helped turn his life and career around. But few short years later, David was found in the ER, that's right, that's the emergency room with a laundry list of symptoms. Neurologists tested him for early onset Alzheimer's, which came back negative. Not only was David struggling with focus again, but now he was suffering from a complete memory loss, chronic fatigue, depression, and his business and marriage were in deep trouble. David, again, turned to nootropic supplements, and he's got an amazing story that he's going to kind of go he's the founder of nootropicsexpert.com. Wade Lightheart: He's written a couple of books, including The Secrets of the Optimized Brain and Head First - The Complete Guide to Healing & Optimizing Your Brain with Nootropic Supplements. David, Matt, welcome to the show. I'm so pumped. I can't wait, this is the stuff that I need. And look at you when I hear that story. And I see you in this background with these orchids and these pictures and this beautiful skin tone and this happy smile and like this kind of Zen thing, I'm going, how the hell did you end up in the ER room? And how did you overcome this? I can't wait to hear this episode. Matt Gallant: And before you share your story I been passionate and kind of obsessed as I tend to bewith nootropics for several years. And as you're digging into YouTube, you fall into a bunch of rabbit holes fell into your rabbit hole. Probably like two or three years ago. I mean, it's been been a while and when I read your book. And Wade said we are interviewing David. I was pretty excited. I just had to share that. I'm a big fan of the content you've created, we'd love to hear your story. David Tomen: Thank you. My story. Well, it started about 13 years ago or so I live just North of Miami. So in Southeast Florida and for the tan and the sun I had moved here in 2001 from the Caribbean, I lived in Antigua for nine years when I came to South Florida, I was a bachelor for a few years. And then I ran into this gorgeous blonde on North Miami beach. And a friend of ours introduced us and we got married six months later. And within the first year that marriage Lara discovered something that I had been battling with all of my adult life. And that was, I had a real problem with focus and I've been to 45 countries and I've lived in a few of them. David Tomen: And every place that I ended up, I always ended up in some executive position or a high management position. And every year there would be a management review, right? The annual management review. And they would say, David, you're a fantastic manager. You're a really good executive. You're fantastic with people. You're good at what you do, but you got to learn how to focus. And so I went out and I bought the books and I read everything that I could, and I thought it was a moral failing. And the reason why I brought up this new marriage is because my wife saw what was going on. And she knew this psychiatrist in Palm beach, this rock star. And so I went up to see this guy and he diagnosed me with adult ADD in PTSDwithin about 10 minutes. And the PTSD part. It took me a couple of years after I started nootropics. David Tomen: But before I think I know where that came from, but they all adult ADD, put me on Ritalin. And it was somebody turned the lights on in my brain. I mean, it was that dramatic. It was a miracle. All of a sudden I could focus and that was fun. It went for a couple of years like that. And then I started growing tolerant to Ritalin and I panicked and I'm going no way. After all this time, I finally found something that worked and I'm going to go tolerant to it. I don't think so. I find out how Ritalin works in my brain and a rental methylphenidate, turns out it's a dopamine retake inhibitor, which means that it inhibits the dopamine neurons in your brain or the dopamine receptors and dopamine transporters in your brain. So it just forces more extracellular dopamine brain. David Tomen: So what does it mean if you're tolerant to it? That means that thing is broken down and it's not working anymore. Maybe I don't have enough dopamine. Now, this is long before I'd learned the word nootropic, but I figured, okay, dopamine, how do I get more dopamine in my brain? And I found out that it was L-tyrasine, a precursor to dopamine, where do I get some? So I went to GNC and there's one writer right around the corner from where we live. And I found a nootropic stack. I didn't know it was called that, but a stack with it had L-tyrasine in it. And it has some other stuff. One of the other problems with ADD and ADHD brain is brain cell signaling. So how do you do that? Well, the precursor to that is alpha GPC or a CDP and a cofactor is settled L-carnitine. David Tomen: So I got a little stack that is called focus factor. It had L-tyrasine all of a sudden riddled and started working a game. I was right. I joined, this is cool. That was my introduction to nootropics or dietary supplements that help the brain. I figured out how to use it. So that typically when you're using these types of prescription stimulants, especially the instant release, once you've kind of taken a couple of times a day because it is like two or three hours, and then they stop working. Then you take another dose and that middle afternoon you crash. But with this stack, if I took this stack again around four o'clock in the afternoon, no crash. So I had focus and all day energy all the way until dinner time. David Tomen: And so things were good. And about seven years ago now, or so things just started falling apart, man, and it got so bad. And my wife took me to the ER, she was that worried because she thought I was having a heart attack and they tested my heart. It wasn't my heart. For some reason I had suddenly become hyperthyroid. And what that means, if you've ever seen the symptoms of hypothyroidism, it's one page, two columns, just bullet points of all the things that can happen. And most of them happened to me. I mean, my marriage was falling apart. We went broke because my business was failing because I couldn't think to focus to work on it. I was falling asleep at two o'clock in the afternoon. Everything melted down. And like you mentioned your introduction, they sent me to a couple of neurologists who tested me for Alzheimer's because I lost my memory and they came up negative and said, we can't do anything for you. David Tomen: And as much respect as I've got for mainstream medicine, there are just some things that they just do not get they don't understand it. So I knew I was on my own again, but I was so sick. I wanted to die. That's how sick I was, but I was surrounded by people that love me. And so there was a reason for me to live and I guess the way I was raised or something just to like, I can do attitude, let's figure this one out too. And so I went back to dietary supplements to help the brain. And I put together a stack on top of what I was using for add. And I got my memory back and I started regrowing my business again. I had a local marketing agency where I was working with local and small businesses that wasn't doing very well. David Tomen: So once I came out of that and started feeling better, I figured, all right, let's just make it easier on myself and just focus on one thing. What's that going to be? Let's do copywriting instead of just more, a broad brush of marketing, let's just do copywriting, write sales copy for companies. And I hooked up with AWA AI who are in Delray beach, Florida, just about 45 miles North of me and learn how to write a direct response sales letter, like the big guys to the guys that gave millions of dollars a year. And so I did that turns out I was really good at it and they said, pick a niche. So I thought, okay, a niche niche, natural hell, right. I had learned how to heal my own body. So I'll just start looking for supplement companies that need copy. And one thing led to another and I ended up working with them. David Tomen: I was referred to a guy in England that had an nootropic stack and it needed some advertorials. And he said, can you write me an advertorial for his stack? And I said, sure. So I wrote it, sent it to him and he said, this is the best thing I've ever seen. Write me another one. I did five of those, what I realized when I was trying to write these things. This is about six years ago now, is that trying to get information on nootropics was almost impossible because the last book on nootropics was published in 1992 , that was the last one that was published. And there were the websites that talked about the nootropics were they weren't helpful at all? So I ended up on pub med when I was writing these sales letters and I was just deciphering thousands of clinical studies like I had done for myself when I was trying to fix my own brain and figuring out how each supplement worked and figure out how to turn it into like grade four language so that anybody can understand it. David Tomen: And so that's how I ended up writing these advertorials and if I'm having this big of a problem doing this, what are the rest of the world doing anybody else out there that's dealing with ADD, or depression or anxiety or PTSD or traumatic brain injury or whatever with their brain, how do they get help if their doctor can't help them, where do they go? There wasn't any place to go. And that's how nootropics expert was born. There was a need for it. And I started writing and I started building that website. And now it's the premier website in the world, the GoTo place for, if you want to fix your brain. Wade Lightheart: A couple of great things that before we get into or I know Matt's going to kind of really start driving some of those questions. I think there was a couple of interesting points in your story. That's really important. The number one isyou had the courage to say, Hey, look, I can't get this. And getting an expert who understood brain chemistry and addressing the needs with ADD. But what I think is really powerful behind that, this is the area where a lot of the current psychiatric or psychological drug stacks that are being provided for people, they're not looking at well, where are these things emerging from? What is it like if you add drugs to the system, I always say that they're accelerating the burn rate of your life. So how are you literally supporting the supply trucks for those key elements to build those neuro-transmitters are the key components. Wade Lightheart: The second thing, when you start talking about the complexity of this, one of the groundbreaking books in this whole area was Orthomolecular Psychiatry by dr. Linus Pauling, Abraham Hoffer, and David Hawkins, which we're big fans of. And of course that turned the whole psychiatric world upside down, as they were suggesting that you could address a variety of different conditions through nutrition and targeted nutrition. And of course there are interests out there that are really trying to oppress that information because of financial reasons or things like that. So that's one of the reasons why we're here for people listening to kind of break that open. And then the second, the third thing I think was really interesting as you talked about being surrounded by a loving group of people who are there to help support your journey and how key that is. Wade Lightheart: And so for people who are suffering out there, it's really important to select those people around here that don't judge you for your condition. Don't get down on you about it that say, Hey, look, this is a condition like anything else. And you need to surround your seat itself with people who are professionals and as well as people who love you on both sides of that, that are going to help you come out of it. And it's obvious that this horrific tragedy and what could have ended up very badly for you to enhance for, well, you found a way out of it and then transcended that to become one of the world's leading experts in his field. So kudos for that. And it's just an honor to have someone who's kind of come through the trial by fire, if you will, and come out the other side and be not just as someone who's writing about it from an external side, but someone who in terminally and intuitively can relate with someone who might be struggling out there to kind of get that, either back to functionality or to a high level performance. Wade Lightheart: So thank you for that. Matt Gallant: Yeah. A couple of things. One I started 23 years ago studying copywriting. I didn't know that part of your journey. And now that I've been through your marketing funnels, I see it's your skill sets, but I think one of the big things you brought up, I think this is where the right approach with nootropics is your biomodulation right. Matt Gallant: You're lacking on one thing, or you've got symptoms or struggling. There are solutions and supplements and biohacking technologies. You know, it's a broad category of things that can get us back to optimal. And that's what you've done, obviously a few times now by troubleshooting, here's the issues. And I want to get deeper into a bunch of different, common, mental brain performance challenges that people have and what your recommended stacks are. But I think it's a really important principle and that's really what we're about. You know, whether you got digestive issues, you can troubleshoot that, or your nervous system is blown out, take some magnesium or your memory's going out. Here's what you can take. So let's start maybe with memory. I think a lot of people as they get older becomes an issue. And I know even for me going back five years ago at a time I was 38. My memory was starting to go and I've been able to get my memory probably the best place it's been since I'm maybe a teenager. It's pretty, pretty amazing. And it's been a combination of things, including nootropics and some of your feed, some neurofeedback, but what's your general approach, nootropically speaking to solve some memory challenges that people might have. David Tomen: Sometimes it depends on their age. Sometimes it's just a problem with a memory. I decided to take a deep dive into learning and memory to find out how it worked. And man, it was a lot more complicated and intense that I ever thought it was gonna be because I found out that memories are formed. Well, the hippocampus is involved, glial cells are involved, dendrites are involved, axons are involved. I went into things like meditation and neuroplasticity and fitness and exercise, exercise, and neuroplasticity and ADHD, stimulants and neuroplasticity. And then I dove into the molecular biology of memory and found out that short term memory and longterm memory and working memory are three distinct kinds of memory that they work differently in different parts of your brain. And I found out how each of these worked and what supports them. And if anybody's interested in seeing this deep dive, it's about, I don't know, gosh, about 20 pages long if you're looking at a word document, but it's called best nootropics for learning and memory and the long, and the short of it is if you wanted to put together a stack to help your memory at right after this podcast put together a stack of CDP choline which is also called Citicoline DHA, which is an Omega three phosphatidylserine pine bark extract PQQ and the B complex vitamins and probably L-tyrosine. Matt Gallant: So the one that had a really big impact for me was high doses of lion's mane, I'm a fan of all the ones, I haven't tried pine spark, but,lion's mane seems to have had an I've gone pretty deep into the research, pretty significant effects on memory. Uis lion's mane also part of more of the longterm memory stack? David Tomen: I'm sure it could be. The reason why I recommend lion's mane to people is because it's one of the rock stars when it comes to boosting BDNF, brain derived, neurotropic factor and brain derived, neurotropic factor, nerve growth factor are needed for things like neuroplasticity and synaptic plasticity. David Tomen: And what that means is, you have to understand how memories are actually formed. They're actually memories are physically formed. They're not created in the ether someplace in your consciousness and you just like pull it down. You actually have a physical network built every time you form them form a memory. So you're encoding this stuff during the day when your brain chemistry decides what's important and what it wants to remember and then for longterm memory and actually,encodes it into your brain between your hippocampus and your cortex,uwhile you're sleeping, which is the reason why sleep is so important to developing longterm memory now. And that means growing new neurons and making sure that the dendrites on those neurons are healthy and the axons are healthy and the synapsis actually exist and they're healthy. And you make sure that they're healthy by boosting nerve growth factor and brain derived neurotropic factor and lion's mane is one of the rock stars when it comes to boosting BDNF and nerve growth factor, which is the reason why it helps memory. David Tomen: I mean, the cool thing about lion's mane. I did one of the studies I came across, I think it came from Malaysia. I think it was in Malaysia. Some guys in a lab took rats and they cut their gluteal nerves. So it's kind of an ugly lab experiment story where they cut the gluteal nerves to cripple the rat. So they couldn't walk anymore, but there's a happy ending because they gave these same rats, lion's mane laced water for two weeks. And at the end of that two weeks, the rats were walking again because the lion's mane helped heal those severed nerves. Wade Lightheart: That's pretty wild. What was the dosage? What was the dosage relative to the weight? Do you recall? Or we have this study that we could throw in the show notes. I think that's fascinating. David Tomen: All I do have the study and I'll send it to you. Wade Lightheart: Oh, that's great. I think, I think a lot of people have to recognize is that the devil's in the dosage oftentimes. So when you see studies on rodents or rats or whatever, you have to know they're not quite the same physiology, but you have to extrapolate over what would be humans. And the reality is you got to go oftentimes to a super physiological dosages to get these kinds of remarkable results. And of course in BiOptimizers, we're all about super physiological dosages because whatever the limit is, we want to find it. David Tomen: That's why I've reviewed close to a hundred different supplements now and how they relate to brain health. And one of the parts, one of the sections of those reviews are recommended dosages and where I get those dosages from our clinical studies to find out what works. And then I compare that to actual user experience out in the wild and put those two together. And it's often different than what's on the supplement bottle. L-tyrasine for example, you need a dose of two or three times a day. For a normal person, probably around 500 milligrams, two or three times a day to get the benefit from it. A lion's mane is probably anywhere from a thousand to 2000 milligrams, either once or twice a day. I like 5,000. I mean, if I, if I'm about to do some really intense brain training, which we do, usually go to five grams a day for a couple of weeks before, during a couple of weeks after. Matt Gallant: I think a couple of grams a day is a good maintenance dose, but I definitely burn for a normal person. David Tomen: And you do have to end. So you take a look at these recommended dosages and they're based on science. I'm on the kind of like tend towards the side of caution to make sure that people don't mess themselves up. But then that is the section right below that as side effects that I write about. And so there are warnings in there in either the dosage recommendations or the side effects of what happens if you overdose this stuff and sometimes overdosing these natural supplements, you can have catastrophic consequences. Lion's mane is one of those things that you're good. You're fine. But there's other ones that if you dose too high, either there's no benefit to about dosing too high or it's dangerous. So you have to be wise to when you're coming to the dosing, but,don't expect to buy something at the vitamin shop or whole foods and just follow the dosage recommendations on the label and take it once and use it for a couple of days and expect your life to turn around. Wade Lightheart: One of the things that we talk about in BiOptimizers, and of course, anytime that you make a suggested dose recommendation for labeling that fits FDA and all that sort of stuff, you're a little bit hamstrung. And so we have the minimum dosage, the maximum dosage and the optimum dosage. And oftentimes you have to kind of Patriot, you know. Wade Lightheart: I believe creasing the postage to kind of hit that saturation point where you get it. And then you titrate down to kind of find your happy medium that have you found a similar type of philosophy inside of nootropics. And then on top of that, what are some of the key mistakes far as risk or dumb things that overzealous technocrats in San Francisco might be tempted to do to get an edge after they'd been up for 48 hours straight working on the latest tech app? David Tomen: Well, I'm overdosing on stuff. I mean, using a lot of times when people want to trying a sublet, first of all, there's this philosophy, this thing that we're conditioned with, that there is a one pill solution, right? And so they think that they're going to try to fix something like PTSD or traumatic brain injury. That one nootropic will do it. Well, that's just not the case is probably going to take a stack of five or six or eight or 10 supplements at appropriate dosages for it to do it. I find that this happens, I see it all the time with beginners or newbies that are first come across this thing called nootropics and they get something like L-tyrasine or phenylalanine or something like that. And they take three times the recommended dose and they get this euphoric feeling and they go, this stuff is great. David Tomen: I love this. And then they try that the next day. And that doesn't happen again. And they're missing the point on the benefit of using that nootropic. Does that answer your question? It just, there are other things too, that if you use too much, but you just get yourself a lot of trouble, like dopamine and serotonin, for example, need to be in balance. So if you're jacking up dopamine all the time, you're suppressing serotonin, or if you're boosting serotonin too high, you're depressing dopamine and bad things happen when either of those happen. So you have to know that if you have to boost dopamine for any reason, whether it's for learning or memory or for motivation or for libido or whatever, if you boost it more than our body is normally accustomed to, you've got to use something like L-Tryptophan before you go to sleep to make sure there's enough serotonin to keep those things in balance. That's another thing that happens frequently is somebody uses something like L-tyrasine and it works for a week and then it doesn't work anymore. And that's one of the reasons why that happens is because they just threw things that are out of whack. Matt Gallant: Well, you bring up a great point and it's always a huge consideration with any supplement, which is receptors and axes, right? If you oversaturate any receptor, then you need to either go to a higher dose or take time off. And if you blow out an access in the body, then you've got some real challenges. So something that I've naturally done is to try to create not just one stack, but two or three that I can cycle so that I'm not hammering receptors. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on. Cycling either an individual stack or ingredient or creating multiple stacks to gain, keep the receptorsclean… David Tomen: I get that question relatively frequently. And my attitude towards cycling and tolerance is that it doesn't necessarily need to happen if you use the recommended dosages. Uit's when you get into higher dosages, now there are exceptions. There are things like that's got a 24 hours half life. You have to cycle that, or you end up building way too much acetylcholine in your brain and your body. There are a couple other ones that you have to cycle. Wade Lightheart: Just a curiosity, just so we can just kind of allocate for them. What is the consequence of doing something like that too much acetylcholine inside your brain? What would happen or what are thesome of the things that you've witnessed with people David Tomen: They can kill you. It's used in aesthetical and esterase inhibitors are used in biological warfare. Wade Lightheart: Wow. So how would it kill you? Like what's the mechanism that takes you out? Like it just disrupts your brain and shuts down electrical signals or what's going on. David Tomen: I can't go into the intricacy of the puzzle of the microbiology, but you flood your system with way too much of choline and the nicotinic receptors are just go "baaaah" and they just don't work anymore. And if they don't work anymore, acetylcholine is your signaling neurotransmitter. When you move your arm, that signal is a set of choline when you move your lips, that signaling is a set of choline and it works like that in your brain too. It helps other neurotransmitters do their job. And if you just overload all of those set of receptors, all of a sudden you're paralyzed. And when you're paralyzed your heart can't beat, your lungs can't move in and out and bring air in and out. And basically you suffocate because everything is paralyzed and can't move anymore. Wade Lightheart: Wow. That's crazy. Matt Gallant: Maybe continue down the acetylcholine rabbit hole. I always know intuitively now when I'm struggling to pay attention that I'm deficient and whether I've got some, some stacks here right on my desk I'll take those or just even eating eggs. Your opinion is eggs enough choline to fill that gap in, or do you find that some people need to add more? David Tomen: Some people need to add more. I mean, I get that question rather frequently too. I always suggest that they should be using something like alpha GPC or CDB choline. And if they arereally tight on budget, they could use GoPro cheaper, like choline vitro trade or choline citrate, but you got to get some extra choline and they say, well, I'm using eggs. Well, do you know any lab in your neighborhood that can take the eggs that you actually cook that morning and test them per choline levels? You don't know how much choline you're getting. And so they use something that requires a set of choline too. Wade Lightheart: What happens if you take too much acetylcholine in the dogs snaps? David Tomen: I've got a little Chihuahua named Oreo and she just attacks a Dora when FedEx or the UPS or the Amazon guy shows up. My favorite racetam is anorecitam. It is the best antidepressant I've ever found. I mean, it just works amazing. Matt Gallant: I was going to get back to anorecitam and maybe you can talk about this and I love your framework around memory to separate longterm short term and memory IO. And of course, one of the big benefits of anorecitam. And I feel that usually five, 10 minutes is your, your Ram basically improves. So maybe you can continue to talk about anorecitam and to stacks that you love to do, and its benefits around verbal fluency and other things. David Tomen: Okay. Well anorecitam was a fantastic antidepressant for me, but before this podcast started, I took anorecitam. Why? Because I can think fast. And so when people are firing questions at me, the answers just seem to come faster. I can retrieve those memories a lot quicker and talk more intelligently. But if I wasn't using alpha GPC and anorecitam wouldn't work because the mechanism of action of how anorecitamworks is one of his things, is it boost the effectiveness of a set of choline your brain by two to 300%. And if there isn't enough to set a calling on your brain, I can't do that. So you have to provide that extra, a set of choline. And just a couple of eggs is not enough to make anorecitam work as well as it should work. The other thing that anorecitam does is it increases the sensitivity of dopamine D two and D three receptors. So dopamine works better. Matt Gallant: Let's see. So what iskeep going into the rest in family? And I have to admit, we can talk about individual brain chemistry, cause it's a huge part of this, this world, but an aniractam and like some of the more esoteric ones like fasoracetam, coluracetam. They didn't really have an effect on me, at least a positive one. What do you see in terms of what, which racetams work for certain types of people and certain types of brains, because at the end of the day, this that's a huge part of the right stacks. David Tomen: Sure. That's a really difficult question to answer when it comes to types of people, because I find that somebody that you like, I can't use fasoracetam for example, it just doesn't agree with me. My body doesn't like it piracetam okay. Oiracetam was the very first nootropic that was invented. There was a doctor named Cornelius Giurgea who has a Romanian chemist. And he was working in St. Petersburg back in the early 1960s with Pavlov, the guy from Pavlov's dogs, he was working with him and he came up with piracetam in 1964 with an outfit called UCB pharma. And it's a cyclic,it's a cyclic derivative of GABA, right? And so the first nootropic that they, that was invented was piracetam, and they were working on something for motion sickness. I'm not sure why. David Tomen: I think it might've had something to do with the Russian space program. So that's why piracetam was invented. It turned out that that's not the way it works. What doctor have found was that piracetam was able to boost cognition even in healthy people, which is extremely cool. And the way it works is it modulates AMPA and NMDA receptors in the brain, which increases the effectiveness of glutamate, which improves the flow of a set of choline the sensitivity and density of acetylcholine receptors. And it increases cerebral blood flow. Now piracetam is the kind of thing where you need relatively high doses of it, you know, like 1600 milligrams, three times a day. And a lot of times, some of the more experienced biohackers and neuro hackers find that they call them attack doses. When they're starting something like doing like piracetam, they'll do 7,006, 7,000 milligrams in one shot just to kind of like saturate your brain as much as possible, but I don't recommend anybody do that unless you really know what you're doing. David Tomen: While I'm talking about dr. Giurgea he's the guy that came up with the word nootropic. He came up with piracetam and then the world caught wind of this. And there has been probably two or three dozen racetams that have been developed since then. And some of them are actually pharmaceuticals right now here in a couple of them in the United States. But dr. Giurgea looked at this after you synthesized piracetam. And he realized that he wanted to name this class of drugs. And so he coined the term nootropic in 1972 and is derived from the Greek N O U S, which means for mind and true pain, which is to bend. So to bend the mine. And then he went a step further and he defined what a nootropic is supposed to be and where this is important. I see in it really irks me when I see uninformed the people in the press and writers, writing journalists writing about smart drugs and they correlate smart drugs with nootropics. David Tomen: And so they make like Ritalin and Adderall are inotropic. And I take real issue with that because I'm a real fundamentalist when it comes to this, because I only talk about natural stuffor derivatives of natural substances, like the racetams. So dr. Giurgea has said a true nootropic needs to enhance memory and the ability to learn assist brain function under disruptive conditions, such as the lack of oxygen and electroconvulsive shock. It has to protect the brain from chemical and physical toxins, likecholine drugs. It increases natural cognitive processes, and it must be nontoxic to humans. Wade Lightheart: It's a very clear definition and the distinction between the drug does and a nootropic and where that line kind of begins and ends between both of those, because pretty much everything that's in a prescription format has some form of toxic buildup. If you look at most people who are on antidepressants or on focus chemicals and stuff, that's been first scribed to them by their doctor. They do end up into the cycling because of the exhaustion of resources or the build of toxicity or components of the liver. So I think that's a really critical factor for people to understand who want to improve performance without damaging their health. David Tomen: So you know, you don't have to use Adderall for energy if you know which nootropic stack to use. Matt Gallant: Think it's a good metaphor like drugs or like bombs and just of course, a lot of collateral damage. And again, we're generalizing and some drugs are good for certain people. And I think supplements are more like guns. It's a lot more targeted. And if you know what you're doing, it can become more of a sniper with, especially with your brain. I've got a tough question for you, which is something that I wonder a lot about myself, which is, do you believe that tropics make us more intelligent? And now we know we can improve memory, we can improve focus, we can improve a lot of different attributes of the mind, but it, I know intelligence we'd have to really define it, which is a very challenging thing to define. But in your opinion, do you think nootropics can actually boost intelligence? David Tomen: I think it can. There is some science to back me up on that. I think for the most part, what tropics do are they help you perform on a level that you either cannot, you haven't been able or haven't been performing or to a level where you're performing that you're actually capable of performing that you were never able to achieve before, but can it improve something like IQ? Yes. A couple of them there have been studies which shows that like iodine, there was a couple of clinical studies that show that supplementing with iodine actually increases IQ. The same thing we've been posting. Wade Lightheart: I mean, when they introduce that to the US the medium IQ of the United States population increased 15 points in the medical research, just from iodine supplementation course, there was a massive deficiency. I think people have to quantify the difference between a deficiency and a key element or mineral, and then maybe your baseline or physiological capabilities of intelligence, IQ, brain functioning, and all its components that you could break it down in a variety of different areas. And then there would be kind of maybe the brain enhancing,technology, which is the equivalent of going to the gym for your brain. Things going to neurofeedback and the various components, and then there's the nutrition program. So if you compared your whole brain as like a bodybuilder, cause that's kind of our background and muscle building and stuff, you look at your brain and you have basic muscle insertions and you have a certain genetic capability, but inside of that, through training and supplementation, you can radically improve and extend your capacity. That doesn't mean that you're going to walk out and become Arnold Schwartzenegger, but, or you're not going to, in this case become, you know, Einstein or something like that, but you can get the out of yourself as well as I think also a sustained level of higher performance than you could if you're not using nootropics. David Tomen: Would that be fair to say fair and a couple of points on that too, is one of the things that I found, especially when I got sick seven years ago, that I was talking about it wasn't just nootropics and getting my thyroid hormones working again, I completely changed my diet. And the more I re-do the research in my writing now, I realize how important that was just by eliminating processed foods and eliminating white stuff and sugar and stuff. I just really champion on the inflammation and I was providing my body with the nutrients that it really, really needed. David Tomen: So I put out the fire and I was giving it, I was giving you the fuel to run, which just supported what I was doing with nootropics. David Tomen: One of the questions that comes up every now and again too, is what, because they're freaked out by prescription drugs. And if you just stop using an anti-depressant or something, you can get really, really sick and same thing with a lot of drugs. I took a one year holiday from Ritalin, for example, just to find out whether I could do the job of riddle and just with my nootropic stack. And I went through a couple of weeks of detox from Ritalin that were not nice. So they asked me what happens if I just stop using something like in post the team and the good, the good thing is nothing. David Tomen: You don't detox from it. One thing, if you've been using nootropics for a while, you are going to revert back, but you're not going to revert back all the way to where you started, but you will revert back to a certain degree, but just by using these substances, you've done a lot of brain repair. And you've just made your brain healthier so you're going to notice that when you stop using certain things, but it's not going to be a detox. Matt Gallant: I kind of categorize two nootropics into two categories. One is in kind of food, right? Again, DHA, lions's mane just fueling the brain kind of laying the foundation if you will. And then these other things, it's more like, okay, what do I need right now? What do I need today? Do I need to be more social, but I need to focus for four hours to write and then take the properstack for that. Is that how you approach your day to day personal nootropic stacks, simpler guy? David Tomen: I'm a much simpler guy than that. I just found something that worked for me. It took me a long time to get to that point, but I got the stack that works now for me, it paid. The stack works for me at noon and the stack that works for me at 4:00 PM. And the stack that works for me an hour before I go to bed. And I use that every single day. And I'd love to know exactly what you're taking. It is highly unusual for me to change from that. Because my philosophy is if you find something that works,why not just keep on doing that? Umow there are guys like you are just smarter than me that, mhat can tailor their stacks to be a lot more specific than that. David Tomen: But for me, I just got to keep it simplefind some stack that works, and then I just keep on taking that. And if something comes along and I try it and it works like gangbusters, I add that to my stack. So I do have a page on nootropics expert called what I take, and it's just got a list of the supplements that I use. They include alpha GPC, alpha lipoic acid, and aniracetam, L carnitine, berberine coconut or MCT oil curcumin, DHA, D M E, which I don't take anymore. I should take that off. Then I have some premade stacks that I use, and I've got an affiliate relationship with. David Tomen: Performance lab, energy vision, they got a prebiotic supplement and a sleep supplement, and then sell beauty, I mean, and been posted team. There's a couple of more that I need to add to this list that I haven't gotten around to, I've been using black seed oil for the last few months. And I find that it's really boosted my immune system,and probably helped me out in April a lot more than I would have been a lot, lot sicker than, than I otherwise, if I hadn't been using things like,uNAC and black seed oil, but that's kinda like my stack I've, I've got a basket beside my desk. That's just full of bottles. And I'm on the page right now. A couple of questions just about that. Wade Lightheart: Next question. Which black seed oil use cause I've been using activation black seed oils. It's absolutely amazing. Probably the best oil I've ever taken. David Tomen: I use the one from amazing…what's the name of that company? It's not beside my desk. Wade Lightheart: We'll put a link to it after on the show notes for people who want to check them out I'll hook you up and give you a try. I'm sure. I don't know if you can find one better. The other thing I noticed… David Tomen: … I've got it. It's amazing. It's called amazing herbs. Oh, cool. Amazing herbs, Egypt and black seed oil. Wade Lightheart: We'll put them head to head and see what happens. I also noticed that your stack is very similar to what a Brendon Burchard used after he was diagnosed with some brain trauma at the amen clinic in San Diego, he had had an accident in ATV accident, had some brain trauma, and then he was noticing some cognitive dysfunction inside himself, and they did all his testing and worked on stuff. And he came back from that and not only made a full recovery, kind of found a new level of performance and sustained performance. I think that's fascinating that there's some, a lot of congruency between those, but this question is the one that's always the one that I'm burning. So we know for a fact in the strength sport world, that if someone has been on anabolics for an extended period of time, maybe for years, in other words, they're using drugs to enhance their performance. Wade Lightheart: When they come back, the baseline level of muscularity is higher than if they've never ever done that before. My question is, if a lot of people that get into nootropics are people who start using the Adderalls, the Modafinils, Ritalin, you name it, you go into any Ivy league university. If you're standing hanging around with the A students, chances are, they've got a few bottles of pharmaceutical enhancements because they're competing like world champion, Olympic athletes, and then inevitably there's the burnout, the crash, the whatever it's kind of, as you exhaust those resources, what's your opinion or your experience relate it to? Does it make sense to push the limit? And what is the limit? How long has the limit, or should that be only a last resort? Like, what is your whole relationship between the use of prescribed pharmaceuticals, nootropics? When, where do they cross the line or should they be used together? Should they use independently? And is there some longterm things that you've observed for people who've used those cognitive enhancers and kind of came back to a more natural method? What's your whole opinion on that? David Tomen: That's a whole lot of questions. I don't believe in pushing, like with an athlete, pushing yourself to the limit, you just, you get stronger. And I don't hold to that idea for the brain,because that's not the way the brain works. Okay. It's just not, it's a different environment. I mean, it's an extremely system, sophisticated environment. I mean, there's some guys that is the most complex thing in the known universe. You're talking about billions and billions and billions of brain cells and neurons. It works in a very specific way. Certain things work in a specific way and you can reinforce or support the way it was designed or intended to work, but over clocking it, it just is begging for trouble. David Tomen: Muscles can get sore or you can sprain something in your brain, you end up in the ER. Wade Lightheart: Brain sprains are bad. Right? David Tomen: Yes. So I do not like the idea of overclocking your brain and it's not necessary. But given that don't ask for a miracle and think that you're going to take something that's taken decades to decay or to break down that you're going to fix it overnight. It's not going to happen. It's not going to take as long as it took me, which I took two and a half years. I had to figure all this stuff out from scratch, reading, freaking clinical studies. You don't have to do that. You can just go to a place like nootropics expert or grab one of my books. David Tomen: And all of that information is distilled down to now you can find out what you need and you're experimenting time and activity is greatly reduced. Does that answer your question? There was a lot of questions in that one. Oh, another thing was pharmaceuticals. There is the reason why I took a holiday from Ritalin is because after I started nootropics I finally got around to the writing the best nootropics for ADHD and ADD. And what I did is I just related my story and I described the stack that I was using and why it worked and how it worked and why it should work for the next person. That's Scott is either using prescription stimulants or is not. And so I wrote this thing and then I thought, Hmm. And I think at that time too, was growing a little tire of methylphenidate and decided I'm going to try Adderall. And I tried Adderall. It just didn't work. I used that for six months and I was like, forget it. So I just stopped using it. And I said, I'm just going to use this stack for a year and and see what happens. And it turns out that it worked. I could, if push came to and I ended up stranded on a desert Island someplace, and all I had access to was natural supplements. And I couldn't get any pharmaceuticals. I could take care of ADHD or add just with a stack, Wade Lightheart: That's a, that's a bold statement. Cause there's so many people suffering from that. And do you believe that one of the reasons that we have a proliferation of ADHD and these type of conditions, certainly within our youth and a lot of people are struggling, do you think that's a product of the fast changing world that we have through digital technology? Or do you think it's a problem with actually delivering the essential nutrients that support a functional brain chemistry? David Tomen: I think it's a combination of providing your brain the nutrients that it needs to, for it to thrive, right from the day you were born which is impossible in this day and age. And we can talk about that. The other one is just, we're surrounded by environmental toxins and we can't get away from it. I mean, I was just reading something this morning on science daily. Uit was a study talking about how the fallates and other things that are in everything from the plastic that we wrap our food into the fire retardants that's used on our coaches and on our carpets in our car seats. And even on some clothes that we wear and the water bottles that we drink from, or the drink bottles that we drink from and the cookware that we use, and I can just go on and on and on, but we are just bombarded and surrounded and hammered by stuff that the human brain was not designed to cope with. David Tomen: And it does damage. It creates inflammation. And when you create inflammation, I'm talking about oxidative stress and free radicals, just run a muck and things start dying, and you end up with all kinds of things like autism, ADHD, depression, anxiety a lot of different things. There are in a perfect world there so still can be, cause I think that add and ADHD are probably largely genetic and our brains are just wired a little bit differently from the normal person. I think that, and so for us being able to perform the same as the person next to us who was not wired like that, we can't just can't do it because our brains are not wired like that. David Tomen: Stop it. I've got a little dog, you hear that? Getting excited again, but let's, let's go back to the nutrients part again, because I think that is so critically important. 50 years ago, people weren't using dietary supplements because 50 years ago, if you ate an apple, you would get all of the nutrients that were originally designed to be put in that apple. Now you would have to eat something like 25 or 30 apples to get the same nutrients that you would get from one apple 50 years ago. And so our food supply is crops are grown on depleted soil. So the nutrients aren't there for the plants to draw up. The carbon dioxide level in our air has gone from 200 parts per million to over 400 parts per million. And what that means, and this is worldwide. And what that means is you would think that carbon dioxide makes plants grow faster. David Tomen: That's a good thing. It's kind of a good thing, but the growth is so fast. So they haven't got time to draw up the nutrients that are in the soil. So, and then they're lost in, we get our food from the opposite side of the world. So the nutrients are lost in transit. They're lost during storage, they're lost during cooking. The stuff that we're eating, no matter how good your diet, you cannot get all of the vitamins and minerals and amino acids and just nutrients that your body needs to be able to thrive. And that's the reason why I'm convinced. That's why there is a multi multibillion dollar dietary supplement industry that is still growing like crazy right now. And there wasn't 50 years ago or a hundred years ago because it wasn't needed back. Then now it's absolutely needed because we can't get it from food. And if you take a look at the nearly a hundred things that I've reviewed on nootropics expert, that we term nootropics, most of those things are either naturally synthesized in your body or come from food originally, but we can't carry food. Matt Gallant: You brought up inflammation and inflammation, such a big issue, both from chronic inflammation on the overall body, this the silent killer or the brain go, just go into the brain for a second. Do you have specific? And probably the most important thing is obviously getting rid of toxins and clean up your diet, but on a nootropic level, do you have a certain stack that you really recommend to people to reduce inflammation? David Tomen: I do. And you know, the odd thing is I wrote a thing on a lot of people were,mentioning that they had a problem with fog. And that just got like kept on coming up over and over and over came brain fog. So I decided to do some research on brain fog and find out what's going on, what causes brain fog. And what I found out is that brain fog, the things that cause brain fog, a lot of other issues go away too, because brain fog is caused by oxidative stress and inflammation, hormone imbalances, nutrient deficiencies, lack of quality of sleep and lack of BDNF. Now the first to oxidative stress and inflammation, what does that mean? Oxidant? Your brain has got your brain consumes 20% of the oxygen that your body uses now consider the size of your brain to the rest of your body. David Tomen: And it still uses 20% of the oxygen. That's a lot, and it uses it to sport 86 billion neurons and trillions of synapses that are all supported by 250 to 300 billion glial cells. And they got to your brain has got to be able to breathe to think, right? And just to put this in perspective, think about how this works. If one study showed that if you cut off the blood supply in a stroke victim, for just a minute, it kills 1.9 million neurons and 14 million synapses. And so neurons die because without enough oxygen going into mitochondria, it can't make ATP for energy production. Critical functions like synaptic plasticity, from memory formation and redox signaling for normal mitochondrial function, they break down your brain is not controlling them the way it's supposed to be. And when this happens, it produces free radicals. David Tomen: Now free radicals are just individual that are just kind of like thrown off during the energy production process and your brain. They're natural, they're normal. But when things start to break down is your brain starts producing more free radicals than it can cope with. That's what your immune system is built into. Our system is designed to do is to heart, help quell those free radicals and keep them in check. And when three radicals get out of hand, it's called oxidative stress. And when oxidative stress happens, it produces reactive oxygen species, and that overwhelms your brain and your built in oxygen defense system. And that is the underlying cause for a host of neurodegenerative diseases, including brain fog. So, and it also leads to things like illegally leaky blood brain barrier, which I just wrote an entire post on how to fix that. David Tomen: How do you start? How do you fix that? It's easy. Vitamin C. Your brain contains more vitamin C than any other organ in your body. It's an extremely powerful antioxidant. It's a reactive oxygen species scavenger, and then even participates in recycling. Other antioxidants like vitamin E vitamin which has eight isomers and they all work together to help o protect your brain cells from damage caused by oxidative stress. You just have to make sure that you're using the right kind of vitamin E coQ 10 provides fuel for mitochondrial function to make ATP, but it also is a very powerful antioxidant. So just that stack right there. Why didn't see vitamin E coQ 10, you can keep free radicals under control. That's all you gotta do. It's not really magic. It's just, you've got to know which ones to select now for, for inflammation,uinflammation. David Tomen: You can actually get a lot. Your doctor did get lab tests for this and you might've seen it on some lab tests, C reactive protein is a very powerful indicator of inflammation, both in your body and your brain, and it's a protein that's made in your liver and it's sent into your bloodstream in response to, in response to inflammation. And so if you know how to read the test you'll know whether C reactive protein is less than it should be, or more than it should be, or it's spot on elevated levels of C reactive protein are implicated in developing things like type two diabetes and stroke. And it all also manifest things like problems with information processing, recall memory and brain fog. So how do we keep C reactive protein in check? We can use again, vitamin C and vitamin E we can use coQ 10. We can use myo-inositol has been shown in studies to lower C erector or protein. We can use DHA, which is a part of their Meghan threes. It helps lower C reactive protein levels. So for just C reactive protein to the ones I was using fobefore I would just add something like DHA and myo-inositol. Matt Gallant: Those has been a game changer for my wife both for her sleep as well as her mood. It's pretty magical. Question on DHA cause by the way I'm not vegetarian, but Wade isDo you have any specific recommendations for DHA sources? Do you have any specific brands or blends that you like for vegetarians? David Tomen: The way I look at is fish oil doesn't work and Omega-3 supplements just don't work. The reason why is it because your brain is about 60% fat. And most of that fat is DHA and a brain cell, which has a little tiny thing, but don't forget, you've got billions and billions in your brain. That brain cell is surrounded by a membrane. And that membrane is like a little globe of protecting that cell, but it has to be fluid. And that membrane is made up of DHA, hospitals, searing advice, but it'll calling. And if you have adequate levels of those three lipids, your brain cells are protected, but they're fluid enough that things like oxygen and nutrients and neurotransmitters can get in and out when they need to. Most fish oil supplements or Omega-3 supplements have got too much EPA in it. And not enough DHA. David Tomen: I personally experienced that you need a thousand milligrams a day, and the only way to get a thousand milligrams easily, that it doesn't break the bank, is just find a really high quality DHA supplement. And there are a couple out there ature's way makes one that two gel caps is a thousand milligrams. Carlson is another one that makes one that I've used personally and I find effective. Uand it's like 10 bucks a month to get a thousand milligrams a day of DHA. And most of us are deficient in DHA. If we're not supplementing with something, because we're not eating things, you would get DHA from something like eating fish. Now, do we eat fish two or three times a week? I know I don't, it's not that I don't, I love fish, but it's just a pain in the ass to go out and make sure that I've got fresh fish to eat two or three times a week, you know? So it's just easier taking a supplement that cost me 10 bucks. Okay. Wade Lightheart: I always had a question about that too, in regards to fish, because we know how heat sensitive fat is, itcan go rancid very easily. And I've always as in and not to throw shade at the people who eat fish or anything like that, but I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be a vigilante vegetarian, but I always seen the conversation of, well, vegetarians can't get access to DHA, and then they'd be like, yeah, I just have my grilled salmon, or I have my krill oil, or I have this. And I thought, well, how are you consuming that? And they're throwing it on the barbeque. I always, I always always had an issue on that knife. I find it refreshing that you've suggested that plant based DHA is superior to the fish to fish. And I find that interesting that both of you have kind of came to that conclusion. And certainly it's something that I know personally as a vegetarian, I can't speak as a mediator, but when I supplement my diet with DHA, my brain feels better. Wade Lightheart: I have more mental resistance. I'm able to calm her. I am able to function at a higher level of cognitive capacity than I do if I don't have it. And I've gone through the deficiency stage and it's not pretty. David Tomen: There's, there's two ways to make DHA really, when it bolstered down to it is either distilled from Marine life like fish or anchovies or Krill,uor it's allergy special allergy has grown just specifically to make DHA either way works so long as you are getting it froma trustworthy supplement company that they test their stuff and that what's on the label is actually in that gel cap in the bottle. Matt Gallant: I love krill personally. I have taken some products, like a brain on from E3 live which does a good version as well. And, you know, I forgot to go in food too. I mean, fish eggs, salmon probably one of the best sources now, to shift gears here, I've you studied the world of peptides Matt Gallant: Okay. I haven't comment from a come at it from that angle. Matt Gallant: I was going to ask you if you're curious what your take was on them. I don't know. David Tomen: I really have one because that hasn't been my approach when I'm thinking about these things. I just know that certain things are peptides of some kind, but I can't speak specifically to peptides until the more you can probably do a lot better job than me right now on peptides. Matt Gallant: Got it. Now, going to focus fridge for a minute. What's your general approach to focus and we can define focuses. You'll be able to eliminate distractions and just stay on task for extended period of time. And of course, ridolin was a big part of that for you back in the day, but for people that do struggle with focus, it's pretty common attention span seems to be shrinking by the day. What do you typically recommend to people? David Tomen: I settled L-carnitine CDP choline, lion's mane L-tyrosine and B complex focus, focus, and concentration are kind of like one in the same in my thinking. And so I'm concentrating more on a set of choline than anything else because it comes down to like brain cells signaling, working really, really efficiently. And that's a set of choline and we support that with a choline supplement like CDP colon or alpha GPCetc. L-Carnitine is a cofactor that's needed to synthesize to make is that of choline. And the B vitamins are cofactors in the synthesis of a set of choline. So I approaching it from three different of precursor into cofactors to make sure that I'm making enough acetylcholine. And then lion's mane mushroom is of course for nerve growth factor in BDNF. So it keeps things in shape. And L-tyrosine because dopamine is involved in short term and, and working memory as well. Two or lesser extent than it said of choline, but it certainly involved. So that would be my stack. Alcaraz CDP choline, lion't mane, B complex, and you'll find that your concentration and your focus ability just goes way up. Wade Lightheart: I got a question that comes out. Recently. I was around some naturopathic doctors and they like many other quote unquote biohackers we're using,ombinations of things like CBD as well as things like micro dosage of cilocyphen for creative focus, for example. And I remember I was always kind of surprised with the naturopathic doctor was saying, I take it up to 200 micrograms and he goes, if I go beyond that, I kind of float off in space and it's not good, but I take up to 200 micrograms. He's like the devil's on the doses. And he does it for his kind of creative, maybe monotonous work or something that what's your opinion on that. I have no opinion about it personally. I'm curious because I know there's a lot of people that are out there doing this microdose story, and I'm not sure whether you've seen results or effectiveness, or is it just another story. I'm just getting high and calling it a performance enhancer? David Tomen: No, I think microdosing has its place and it's very effective, but you've got to be a very experienced biohacker and neuro hacker to be able to do microdosing are you're gonna get yourself in a trouble. Microdosing something like LSD or psilocybin or something like that is dependent it's ability to work really, really effectively is dependent on a healthy brain. Wade Lightheart: So you would say, you would say first let's, let's fill up the baseline, get all the nutrients and make sure you get your brain operational so that your app operating from a full warehouse of resources, if you will, for your brain. And then before you kind of go down those lanes of experimentation, David Tomen: Absolutely. There is no shortcut here. There's no shortcut to a really highly functioning brain. You gotta take care of the fundamentals first, and then once you take care of the fundamentals and hopefully understand those fundamentals and why they're working your brain, then you have my ego is say you have the right to try micro-dosing some of this stuff, but it is. And that's kind of like an egotistical thing to say, that's not true. David Tomen: It's not a wise choice to do something like that. That can also be used. If you overdo it it takes some kind of a shortcut to achieve something, because the knowledge is just, you have to have the knowledge to be able to pull something like that off successfully. Wade Lightheart: Well, I think to qualify that for our listeners would be okay. Just because you're have a driver's license doesn't mean that you can get in a brand new high performance sports car, and think that you're going to be able to handle it the same as you do your Toyota in order, you're going to have to get the proper coaching and resources and materials, and really understand how that performance vehicle operates and functions, and gradually increase your capability through experience and kind of minimize the crashes. You're not going to take that out on a regular highway and say, Hey, let's see what we can do for top end performance. You're going to be under a closed track with all of the safety parameters around there, under the guidance of professionals in order to kind of manage that track before, you know, you're going to get out there. So it's the equivalent of a 16 year old, throwing them in a McLaren and say, you don't have that. It go to the prom kiddo. And by the way, here's a quarter here's a quarter of ride at, you know, really add to the excitement. You know, I mean, it's just asking for problems. David Tomen: I love that analogy. That's fantastic. Great way to put it. Matt Gallant: So maybe we can wrap up talking about sleep and going back to my own personal memory challenges at that time when I was having memory challenges, I get it know it, but I was having horrible, deep sleep. And then I got the ordering certain measuring my quality of my sleep and found that it was zero to 15 minutes. And as I've improved my sleep my memory and all kinds of aspects of brain function have improved, including,some sleep stacks. So just so I've got your sleep stack open here. Just want to walk through some of the ingredients. First of all, I have to say,the first thing that I loved about, your stack and what things you've mentioned is that to be careful with melatonin, because most people will turn to melatonin first. And I think it's one of the worst sleep supplements other than using it to reset circadian rhythms. If you're traveling and you just jump eight time zones is great. First of all, for me, I found that I would get less sleep. I would wake up before I wanted to wake up and people, and you can get, adapted very quickly after increased the dose. And it's a very potent hormone. I mean, to me, it's, it's as potent as a testosterone. So maybe you can talk about melatonin, then we can dive into some other aspects of your sleep stack that I find interesting. David Tomen: Sure. I think you have to understand why people are so focused on, on melatonin and buying melatonin supplements is because they've heard that melatonin is involved in sleep. And that is true because the way it works is you've got your Peniel gland is located deep, deep in the center of your brain. And it receives signals from your hypothalamus to synthesize and secrete the hormone melatonin, which plays a role in your circadian rhythm and sleep cycle. All right. That's where that idea for melatonin comes in. Now you're asleep, awake homeostasis is also involved. The neurotransmitter adenosine is created over the course of your day as a natural byproduct from the formation of Adenosine triphosphate or the ATP. That is the fuel that is created in your mitochondria, which is your fundamental fuel supply. So the current theory is that this buildup of adenosine from creating ATP during the day leads to a bench, I'll need to slow it down and replenish these stores of energy through sleep and this natural homeostatic sleep drive, remind your body that it needs to sleep and even regulate sleep intensity, depending on the amount of natural stress that you've put on your system. David Tomen: And that's the reason why stimulants like caffeine work because it's an adenosine antagonist. So it inhibits that sleepiness effect. That's why that works. Then I dive into the sleep in one of my articles, too. I dive into the sleep stages from stage one, sleep stage two, stage three and stage four REM sleep, and then how much sleep you need. So there's a lot going on when you're sleeping and there's different stages of sleeping, and there is the need to get there. And melatonin is just not the answer for a number of reasons. Yes, you need melatonin, but the dose you're burning actually uses somewhere between 0.5 milligrams and 0.8 milligrams of melatonin during the night, most sleep supplements are anywhere from five milligrams to up to a hundred milligrams. And I saw one study where somebody went out and they bought 25 melatonin supplements, and they took them back to the lab and they tested them to find out what was actually in the capsules. David Tomen: And what came back was shocking. It was, it ranged from 84% less melatonin that was declared on the table label to up to 450% more melatonin in the capsule than was listed on the label. So that's one is the amount of melatonin that's in the capsule of the melatonin supplement that you bought is probably not five milligrams or probably not one milligram. I mean, it's just a wild guess of actually how much melatonin is in there. The other problem is that synthetic melatonin, which is how you make melatonin, is if you read the chemistry on how they make it, you can't even pronounce the names of some of these chemicals, just it. And the third thing is that when I use melatonin, my wife knows it the next day, because my mood personality has completely changed. So I just steer people away from melatonin as a supplement. David Tomen: You do not want to do that. Yes, you need melatonin, but a melatonin supplement is not the way to do it. A better option if you're going, if you need to supplement with melatonin is use something like tart cherry juice, because Montmorency, tart cherry has been found to be nature's best source of natural melatonin. It provides just the right amount of melatonin. And so instead of buying melatonin, go to your local supermarket and get organic tart cherry juice from concentrate, not a juice plant, but tart cherry juice from concentrate and like six ounces, about 60 minutes before you go to bed, well, you've got the melatonin that you need. Matt Gallant: Well, what I love about your general approach and it's one of the big ways we approach formulating supplements is to focus on the precursors. And one of the precursors to melatonin is serotonin. And as you mentioned on your site, the tryptophan is a great way. You know, there's a few products that I love to use to boost alpha brainwaves and serotonin before sleep. For an example, lavender oil, the, the oral forms is a good one. But then here, you've mentioned tryptophan that's part of your stack to help get the serotonin going, and then start the whole melatonin prolactin cycle. Maybe you can talk about what dose you use and typically when do you use it? David Tomen: My sleep stack, I always take it 90 minutes to 60 minutes before I go to bed. And that takes time for my digestive for it to go through my digestive system and get to where it needs to go on my brain for it to work. So as tart cherry juice and 500 milligrams of L-tryptophan and not five HTP, but L-tryptophan, because the way the pathway goes, it goes to L-tryptophan to five HTP to serotonin, to melatonin. So people go, okay, you need a precursor to let's just use five HTP as a direct precursor. The problem with five HTP is that you can't, it's really, really difficult to dose it and people overdose it all the time. And what happens when you overdose five HTP is you amp up serotonin so much that you depress dopamine and clinical studies show that when they tried using five HTP for treating depression, it worked fantastic for the first five weeks, and then it stopped working and they didn't know why. David Tomen: I don't know why it's because they depress seratonin and dopamine so much that it just upset the balance. So don't use five HTP L-tryptophan it's a lot safer. It's a lot more forgivable. It's two steps away from making serotonin and serotonin is needed for as a precursor to the synthesis of melatonin. So 500 milligrams of L-tryptophan. L-Theanine is another one that I should add to that page too, because I love l-theanine, because it does increase serotonin. It does affect alpha andbrainwaves. And it just has got a beautiful calming effect. And it's fantastic. Before I sleep, I find out that if I take 200 milligrams of l-theanine and you know, in the morning, it makes me sleepy by taking 60 minutes before bed, it just makes me, helps me sleep better. David Tomen: Another one is magnesium. Magnesium is so critical. Uand most people in the US probably worldwide are deficient in magnesium. Magnesium is, gosh, it's involved in so many things. It is like 600 enzymatic reactions in your body and brain are dependent on magnesium. There you go. Uand it does a whole bunch of things, but when it comes to sleep, the two things that it does, it helps relax your muscles. And that's one of the things that you want to do when you're sleeping is your muscles need to be relaxed, so you're not jerking around. Uand the other thing it does is it affects GABA, a receptors, and you know, what other drug sleep, drug effects, GABA receptors that was really effective ambient. So instead of using ambient, you just use magnesium Matt Gallant: Magnesium's involved in tryptophan in five HTP and serotonin. So all the precursors are trying to, to basically get going. Magnesium's part of that. It's one of the core factors now, just to something I've been experimenting with just recently, which is also on your stack here is phenibut and curious to hear, and of course, it's one of the things you gotta be careful with dosage and frequency. Maybe talk to again, dosage frequency do's and don'ts cause it's, it's one of the ones you want to be knowledgeable before you dive into the deep end of the pool. David Tomen: Phenibut is something that I don't recommend anymore. Mmm. I used to, until I learned more about it and the problems that people are all having with it, it's just one of those things. Yes. It's natural. Yes. I just helps boost GABA and it's very, very effective in boosting GABA. That's another thing that I use for sleep is 500 milligrams or 750 milligrams of GABA before I go to sleep. But the problem with Phenibut is it, it, it takes four or five hours for it to kick in, so that you're feeling the full effect of it. So one of the problems is people want more of an instant reaction and when they take it an hour later, something hasn't happened. So they take more phenibut and they take more. The other problem with phenibut is just like, when you take drugs that affect GABA, if you stop it right away, you go through one hellish detox, it's just nasty, nasty, nasty detox. So I just steer people away from phenibut and the other thing is it's just so hard to get in the United States now has a really, really it's really, really hard to find. So unless somebody was using phenibut for a very specific reason, I would say use GABA instead. Matt Gallant: Got it. One that I haven't played with yet. Is lemon balm curious what dose that you take? How frequently do you use it and do you have any specific brands that you love? David Tomen: Lemon balm? Well, it depends on whether you're using lemon balm tea or using lemon balm supplement. Lemon balm extract as a supplement 300 to 600 milligrams a day. So if you're using 600 milligrams, it would be two doses of 300 milligrams, like one in the morning and one at noon, or you could use it before you went to sleep, too. Or if you were making tea out of lemon balm leaves, then one to two grams. The interesting thing about lemon balm is the way lemon balm works in your brain is yet is an aesthetical inhibitor, which means it boosts the effectiveness of acetylcholine in your brain. It's also a very powerful antioxidant. So it protects brain cells from free radical damage and where effects comes from, it is raises levels of GABA by inhibiting the enzyme called gaba transaminase. So it has a big, huge effect on mood regulation and where this really came home to me was a couple of weeks ago, I was doing a personal consultation with one of the big tech firms out in California. And this guy is relatively young. I think he was in his early thirties. David Tomen: And he was pretty healthy. And he had most things. He had a big nootropics user. I had everything under control, but when he got in front of an audience where he had to make a presentation, he would just freeze up and he said, what do I do? And so I just listened to the symptoms and I said, well, yeah, I'll give you three options and try one of them and see how it works. And I gave him a list of lemon balm valerian, and there was a third thing. I don't read a what it was, but lemon balm was the first on the list. First thing he did was he overnighted lemon balm from new chapter from Amazon. And he used it just before he went into a meeting the next day and by magic solve the problem, he didn't freeze up. And the thing is that most, it's not a very well known supplement in the United States. Wade Lightheart: I've got a question actually. It's actually four things that we really didn't touch base on that I think would be relative to get your commentary either pros or cons on which they're common used to alter, I would say a brain function and that would go in the order to go through them. Cause I think from usage caffeine, nicotine CBD and THC because they're so widespread. I'd love to hear your commentary on those four elements for our listeners. David Tomen: Caffeine is an extremely infective nootropic. The main reason why caffeine is so effective in helping giving you that that stimulant effect is I mentioned earlier, that is an adenosine antagonist. And when you antagonize or you suppress adenosine, not only are you less sleepy, but it also influences the set of choline, epinephrine, serotonin, and it boosts the use of dopamine in your brain. That's where the stimulant effect comes from. It also provides a protective effect because it boosts the gene expression of brain derived neurotropic factor, and studies show that chronic caffeine consumption may protect against developing things like Alzheimer's. Uand caffeine improves your mood within an hour of consumption because it increases the density of GABA receptors and it potentiates dopamine and causes serotonin receptors to be more responsive. The problem with caffeine using it as a is that it's also a diuretic. David Tomen: So it depletes certain B vitamins because it boosts dopamine, you end up running out of dopamine sooner than what you should, and it forces your adrenals to produce more cortisol, which is your stress hormone. And so to the most effective way to use caffeine is by combining it with l-tyrosine so that you're replacing the dopamine that you're using, I'm taking a B complex so that you are putting back the stuff that goes out in your urine when you're using caffeine. Alphanine helps suppress cortisol levels and it helps balance out the neurotransmitters that caffeine affects so much. So I see a lot of stacks out there that are just caffeine and l-theanine, and there are clinical studies that show 50 milligrams of caffeine and a hundred milligrams of l-theanine is the ideal dosage for that to work. But what they forget is about the other things that caffeine does. And that's where a little bit of l-tyrosine and B complex come in. So yes, caffeine is a very effective nootropic. Umut you need to know how to use it. What was the next one? Nicotine. David Tomen: Then we'll go to nicotine next. I am just curious How much l-theanine and B complex, would you be adding to that combination? And if you were taking it, let's say in divided dosages, let's say you're taking one in the morning and one in the afternoon, would you take the l-theanine with that and the B complex? David Tomen: If you just took a standard B-complex supplement in the morning like the one from a life extension because they've got the exact right dosages and they've got the methylated version. So that, they're the kind that your brain recognizes as food instead of having synthetic B-vitamin in it, like, for example, they use methylfolate instead of folic acid and they've got methylcobalamin. So it's just a really good B-complex the one by life extension has comes in two capsules. So I take one in the morning and one at noon. And then for l-theanine a hundred milligrams in the morning and a hundred milligrams at noon, if you're a heavy caffeine user and l-tyrosine with that dosage, you really need about 250 milligrams of l-tyrosine. I don't worry about that because I'm using l-tyrosine already because I'm dealing with adult ADD. So did that answer your question Wade Lightheart: I think that's really great because I'm a guy that likes caffeine and I also have suffered the consequences of caffeine. So it's a mitigating the downside is always a good idea. Let's move on to nicotine because that's a kind of a big usage, chemical that's widely available and used by a lot of biohackers in the new truck. What's the upside and downside. Do you feel? David Tomen: First of all, there, you've got two kinds of acetylcholine receptors. You have nicotinic acetylcholine receptors and you have muscular Renick, acetylcholine receptors, the nicotinic receptacle and receptors respond to nicotine. Unicotine improves short and longterm memory because it increases the neurotransmitters that helps with memory formation. It induces longterm potentiation, which helps encode longterm memories. Uit binds to nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in your brain, which boosts the release of acetylcholine, but not only is that a choline it boosts the release of dopamine, serotonin and glutamate as well. So, and that all affects alertness, attention, cognition, and mood, and it modulates the connectivity structure and structure of brain networks, and it just improves whole brain communication efficiency. Uso your brain just works better on nicotine. The studies that I came across showswhat nicotine is one of the things that increases IQ, believe it or not. David Tomen: Researchers in New Zealand conducted a trial with 10 women and six men ranging from 18 to 32. All participants were smokers and were instructed not to smoke during this two hour period prior to the experiment. They ran them through certain tests in two different sessions. And each of the two experimental session subjects were given 20 minutes to complete. The assign half of this particular test at the beginning of the test, the subjects got six puffs of a medium cigarette, which is about 0.8 milligrams of nicotine every 20 seconds. And after 10 minutes, the subjects were prompted to take another two additional. The results of the experiment showed that their APM scores, which is the kind of test that they were using were significantly higher in the smoking session compared to the non-smoking session. And suggesting that nicotine adds to enhance intelligence. David Tomen: Another study of the university of California may explain this a part of this boost in IQ, nicotine was found to increase the efficiency of neural communication between areas of the brain involved in cognition and even the rest of the brain. So nicotine boosts IQ, nicotine improves typing speed and boost memory. It's been used in the treatment for ADHD. There's all kinds of magical things that nicotine does, but I do not advise that people do it by smoking cigarettes. As a nootropic, the best dosage is one to two milligrams on an as needed basis. I've been using nicotine during this podcast. I don't know if you've noticed me slipping some under my tongue, but it's just like one milligram. And I just find that things fire faster. I'm able to respond to stuff a lot quicker when I'm using it. Matt Gallant: We've seen it in here. Just, just real quick sec. It's really one of my favorites. I was never a cigarette smoker, but when I started having friends that were vaping definitely noticed the boosts and I've done the sprays and I've done. And right now I'm doing the gum. Lucy does a really nice gum. What's become my go-to just one caveat for everybody listening on the vaping. The real issue for me with the vaping was I felt I was exhausting my dopamine because of the, just by pounding the reward system due to oral obsession. I don't get that with the gum where the sprays, I don't, you know, I already popping up every, every 30 seconds. Uso I, I found that I was just exhausting, my dopamine just pounding my receptors too much with the vape. I don't have that issue with the gum or the spread. Sorry, go ahead. Wade Lightheart: The question I had, if you knew about this was I had consulted with a friend of mine. He's a former vascular surgeon, and I was asking him particularly about nootropic or about longterm nicotine use. And his concern was that it may cause vasoconstriction over the longterm. Have you seen any evidence of that or is that more associated with the chemicals that might be delivered in cigarettes? David Tomen: I think the latter, I really think the latter, the one thing that I have in the side effects section of my negative and review is that it may cause cancer, nicotine itself does not cause cancer. Let's just get that out of the way right now. It's the other crap that's in these either particularly cigarettes and in some vaping juices too, and the way they're burned but it may be a tumor promoter. So if you currently have cancer or you are prone to tumor formation, then you should avoid nicotine. Wade Lightheart: Got it. Last two: CBD, THC. Some people use CBD, some people use THC, some use in different ratios to get different effects. What's your opinion on it ? Positive, negative? What's your thoughts? David Tomen: CBD very positive. I personally use CBD oil because it helps me sleep. Wade Lightheart: How much what's the dosage that you feel? David Tomen: Well, the 10, 20, 10 and 20 milligramsIt enhances serotonin and glutamate signaling via receptor, which is why it has such a profound effect on mood. So it helps. It's anti-anxiety and antidepressant. And it can help reduce anxiety and people that are dealing with social anxiety disorder. But that's how it works. That's how it provides those benefits. CBD oil has got a lot of attention because of using it to treat seizure disorders like epilepsy. Like I've got an affiliate relationship with Charlotte's web and those guys got started because they were working with young Charlotte who was the one that, that kind of like hit the news and everybody found out about it. So it's pretty effective for some, not everybody, but some and they're still trying to figure out why it provides that benefit. David Tomen: But what we do know it enhances GABA, which helps prevent seizures and it's anti-psychotic effects are related to its effect on increasing levels of enendomide. There's only a couple of other things that affect enendomide. Cacao is another one that come to mind. There's very few things that affect enendomide, but CBD is one of them. Your body has got a whole system that works with cannabinoids. CBD in particular acts on CB two receptors to produce anti-inflammatory responses in brain cell and in immune cellsand the oxidation that contributes to damaged season and things like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's,uand this inflammation has also been associated with depression. CBD helps reduce the oxidative damage and inflammation,leading to some of these diseases. When it's used with THC, it helps mitigate, or it helps reduce some of the side effects caused by THC. So I just think that CBD is a much, much more effective and safer any Tropic than THC is. Wade Lightheart: For example, I've done all of the above and different dosages and Matt and I have a funny story. With Charlotte's web we were getting on a plane to Canada one time and we decided, we better not have this. It might cause some border stuff. So we, I think we basically shared a bottle and downed it and had some sort of, some side of cosmic mind melt. That was pretty awesome for both 30 minutes. I'm not suggesting people do that, but when you're talking about THC, sometimes people say that like a small amount of THC with your CBD seems to activate it or potentiate it. So you'll see some of these,you know, ratios of like 18 to one, 11 to one, 10 to one, six to one, three to one. Everybody's got their quote unquote marketed stack. Have you seen any benefits or do you see it's more liabilities than benefits? David Tomen: I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not smart enough to figure that stuff out. I mean, these guys have just been, that's all they do is that the way they work with this stuff. And I'm sure that there's a lot of truth behind their theories and a lot of this stuff. But I just haven't gotten down in the weeds. Right. This makes sense. I am on CBD and how it works in the brain and it works like magic. Matt Gallant: How do you take it during the day? Cause I love taking it at night before bed. I do find it helps on off days, but I do find it certainly enhances mood, but it seems that sometimes too much of it, I kind of lose a little bit of a cognitive edge. David Tomen: I don't, I just use it at night too. Because of its effects on serotonin and GABA, I'm convinced. Wade Lightheart: So that's another one of these things. The devil's in the dosage again, and any suggestions on where to start with dosages? David Tomen: Well, it depends on what you're treating because the male, if you go to the Mayo clinic, for example, their research shows that for if you're treating epilepsy, it's two to 300 milligrams a day hunting, hunting pins disease is 10 milligrams of CDB per kilogram of body weight. Sleep disorders is 40 to 160 milligrams of CBD per day. So I find that 20 milligrams is effective for me. I don't need 40 milligrams. Schizophrenia is anywhere from 40 milligrams to 1,280 milligrams per day. Glaucoma is 20 to 40 milligrams a day. And for chronic pain, 2.5 to 20 milligrams of CBD per day. So it depends on what you're dealing with and what you're trying to treat Matt Gallant: I got a little pro tip for people too. And especially like Charlotte's web is one of the strongest CBDs in the market. There's a big difference in the effects of it, I've probably tried 50 brands at this point. Matt Gallant: You have to time it because if you do like even 30 milligrams of Charlotte's web, if that hits me before I pass out I start feeling so good that it's hard to fall asleep a little bit. So, you know, too much of it and I don't really want to sleep. So that's my only caveat on, on dosing and timing. I do find if I do like 20, 30 milligrams an hour before, it's fine, but Charlotte's web is pretty potent. It's really a good product. I like it. Wade Lightheart: Well, I guess we're coming up to the end of the show. I know Matt and I would probably just sit here and extract the goal to have for that you're delivering. Wade Lightheart: And I really appreciate how you've just laid down so much great information, not only just in products, but getting specific about the dosages as well as providing some insight about the risk rewards. Slow and steady wins the race over timeand kind of optimizing your own specific stack. I think these are really valuable components. Can you share with our listeners where people can first off. Everybody who's listening, get his books, go to his website, get all this information, stop the cookie cutter routine down at the local coffee shop, where people are randomly select lines, get the information here from David and get some research backed and experiential based components to start your nootropic experience in a way that makes sense. It's logical that you can build up. Can you tell everybody where to reach you and where to find out? And if you do any consulting specifically to help people, if you could lay down all that information, we'd really appreciate it. I know some people will be reaching out to you. David Tomen: Sure. The main source of information is nootropicsexpert.com and that's what it started at all. There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages of information there. I've tried to put it in. And so that it's as easy to find as I can figure out so far. So when you get to the website you'll find a start button and home page and that kind of gives you a general overall view of what's on the site. And then there's a nootropics guide that I referenced a little bit earlier in this call where I talk about where nootropics came from and why they're called that and what they do. And then the list of nootropics, the list of nootropics is close to a hundred individual supplements. David Tomen: And that particular tab has gotall in alphabetical order. That's how a lot of people end up on nootropic size, cause they're just searching the web for information on CBD oil or MCT oil or nicotine or valerian. And that's how they end up there. Well, that list has got all of them in alphabetical order and the table of contents. If you find what you're looking for, you just click on it. It scrolls you down immediately to a brief description of what that is. And then a link to my full review, which is a very concise review of what that true nootropic is, where it comes from, why we use it how it works in your brain, what happens when you don't have enough of it, clinical studies and links to these clinical studies, dosage, recommendation, side effects and what type to buy, including sometimes specific information on companies. David Tomen: Then I have posts on best nootropics for everything, from anxiety to depression, to PTSD, to true traumatic brain disorder, to aging. It's all there. I also have a YouTube channel that has 55,000 subscribers so far, and it's growing by a couple of thousand subscribers every week it seems. A lot of the stuff that's on the website is also available on video format on the YouTube channel. UI also have two books,give me your email address and I'll send you a free copy of Secrets of the Optimized Brain. And that's the kind of book that you would actually pay for our book. Is that valuable? I think it's almost a, it's about 80 pages and I think 72 nootropics in there listed with a pretty concise description of the longer review that I have over on the website. David Tomen: Give me your email address so you can apply. You can subscribe to my newsletter and get your copy of that book. Downloaded instantly my big book. Headfirst is the first book since 1992 is almost 600 pages and it's basically a manual for your brain. The lion's share of the book are full nootropics reviews for 80 or 90 individual nootropics. I've got one chapter, it explains to you in really plain easy to understand English, how your brain works so that you've got some groundwork on why these nootropics actually work.The final couple of chapters are devoted to suggested nootropic stacks for everything, from anxiety to depression to add to whatever. And it's not expensive right now. David Tomen: I've got it on sale discounted to $37. I think it's certainly worth that. But it's not the kind of book you want to read, cover to cover. It's not that kind of a book. It's a manual with a really good table of contents. You can hunt stuff down. I also do personal consultationsand that grew organically. People were asking me started a few years ago. They wanted help for any all kinds of reasons. So I work with newbies to do the nootropics world, to veterans guys, like Matt, who have been using them for years. And they just want to see if they can tweak their stacks somehow. And I work with everybody from students to parents that want to help their students, people in their twenties and thirties that are in the want to move their careers forward to people that are in their sixties and seventies and eighties. I just want to keep on going. I work with everybody. There's a link on the website and it'll take you to a calendar, o that you can book some time with me. Asually an hour, or half hour. We haven't got enough time to get through what we need to but a lot of people find that very, very helpful. David Tomen: I've got a podcast page on a Dropbox expert, and this will be at the very top as soon as you guys publish it. Wade Lightheart: Well, Matt G. I know you and been excited about this interview for a long time. And again, David you've over-delivered folks, you gotta go to nootrophicsexpert.com, get the book, download everything, go there, find out this sign up to the YouTube channel. David, you've been an amazing guest. I'm excited. I'm spinning my hat around. I'm so excited because I'm just running out there and I'm going to get the latest rate of stacks that you recommend. I've made so many notes about this. I'm probably going to come back to the podcast. I'm going to get the book. I'm going to say it, do it all. And next time we meet and have you back on the show, you're going to see super enhanced nootropic Wade. I'm. I'm pumped to be here. Thanks so much for joining us today on the awesome health podcast show for BiOptimizers. David Tomen: Thank you so much guys, for inviting me and having me. I appreciate it. Wade Lightheart: Take care. Have a great day. David Tomen: You too.