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060: Healing The Gut with Christine Rosche

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Healing the gut can make all the difference in our quest for living a long, healthy life. Christine Rosche is a world renowned expert on the topic of healing the gut and she’s here to tell us about it. She is a board certified functional nutritionist and digestive health expert with 25 years experience in healthcare, including 10 years at Stanford University Medical Center. She is also the author of Light Living, An Integrated Approach to Health and Weight.

Today on Awesome Health, Christine and I talk about why so many people are overfed and undernourished: so much of our food today is processed and has additives and other unnatural ingredients we don’t need. In fact, the average person eats up to 100 pounds of sugar a year! Naturally, Christine recommends staying away from sugar and anything else processed, and she also recommends consuming bone broth along with fermented vegetables like sauerkraut and kim chi and cultured foods for healing the gut. 

Another key component of having a healthy gut is Vitamin D. Depending on your skin tone you may need more or less of it, but everyone needs it. We can get it through sunlight of course, but it’s also important we include it as a supplement in our daily regimen. Getting the right amount helps improve or maintain a well-balanced microbiome so it’s also necessary to get tested. When you know what your levels are and how much to supplement, Christine recommends taking Vitamin D in liquid form because it’s easier to break down and absorb than a capsule.

We wrap up with Christine’s explanation of how probiotics can help lower cholesterol. She tells us they help move toxins out of the body, maintain a normal pH balance, regulate the metabolism of cholesterol and can even aid in the absorption of nutrients.

Hear more details on the power of probiotics and other fascinating gut-healing topics when you join us for episode 60 of Awesome Health Podcast!

Episode Resources:

Read The Episode Transcript:

Wade Lightheart: Good morning, good afternoon and good evening, wherever you are. It's Wade T Lightheart for the Awesome Health Podcast by BiOptimizers. And I'm excited today because we have a world renowned expert Christine Roche, who is a board certified functional nutritionist and digestive health expert. Her background includes 25 years in healthcare, including 10 years at Stanford university medical center. She is the author of two books and is a pioneer in the use of functional testing to identify the health of the gut and reduce inflammation. She has trained with the best functional medicine clinics in Europe and the United States and works nationally and internationally on Skype or in person. So we can use technology now to connect with experts like Christine, Christine specializes in gut healing for auto immune disorders, GERD, heartburn, constipation, diarrhea, and intestinal permeability, gas, bloating, and helping you improve your resilience in times of viral infections through strengthening the gut immune system. I'm so excited because this is the foundational aspect of what BiOptimizers about that all health and all disease begins in the gut. Going back to Hippocrates. I saw that you quote Hippocrates as well because he knew this stuff back that I don't know, but Christine, welcome to the show.

Christine Roche: Thank you very much Wade.

Wade Lightheart: I'm curious, I'm thinking that our listeners curious before we get into the real thing, how did you get into this field? What got you started into looking at figuring out all the dysfunction that happens in people's guts and how that contributes to health or how that contributes to disease?

Christine Roche: Well, I worked at Stanford hospital for many years and I was assigned to a project that was actually looking at what happened with people after they had a surgery, particularly heart surgery bypass other kinds of surgeries. And what we found is I was on the track. They actually go either the primary care associate at the medical school program. And what I saw was that most people I spoke to told me when I left the doctor, I didn't get any information about what to eat and how to conduct my lifestyle. And so two years later, I'm back for another bypass and I'm back for another operation because I just went right on to eat my big Mac. I didn't know that I have to make a difference. And so what I noticed is I said to my supervisor, I had a mentor who was in the field of nutrition.

Christine Roche: And she said, you know, this is really critical that you consider, do you want to write prescriptions and just deal with symptoms? Or do you want to help people to identify how they need to eat so that they don't have to have another bypass? That's how it began. And then I was fortunate that it could be invited through a position with one of the leading functional medicine practitioners at the time, Carl Abner and Lindsey Berkson. We had a clinic for over 10 years working side by side together and integrated functional care, which was incredible.

Wade Lightheart: That's a great, let's talk about that for a second. So can you explain to people what functional medicine, health care is?

Christine Roche: Yes.

Wade Lightheart: That's thrown a lot around a lot, but not everybody understands what that means.

Christine Roche: Yes, exactly. So what happens is that at the, we all know that it's very important. If you break a bone or you need heart surgery that you need the field of standard medicine excels at helping you fix broken bones. You know, if you get strep throat, if you need surgery, what functional health care does is look at the root cause. The tip below the iceberg. So in other words, in general, what happens is in medicine, we're treating symptoms with drugs and that's how medical schools are operating for many, many years. And yet he awkwardly said all disease begins in the gut, right? So there's a root cause. So if you imagine the roots of the tree, I'm just going to share an image here, which is the image of the functional medicine system. And you just go over here.

Wade Lightheart: So for those of you who are just listening on the podcast, you can go to our YouTube channel at BiOptimizers and actually see the slides that Christine is going to show.

Christine Roche: So basically the 21st century medicine when you look at the diagnosis, the physician climbs up the tree, the organ tree, and there's all these different organ systems. And what happens is that all of these systems on the tree, what we're doing is squirting different drugs and different systems we have, it's all divided. And what functional health care does is what you see in this slide, look at underneath at the roots of the tree, nutrition, absorption, digestion, elimination, but genetic patterns that are going on stress, exercise, physiological processes, they're looking at how you're hydrated. How do you absorb your nutrients? How do you eliminate your waste, how you detox and functional healthcare we look at, is there a phase one and phase two balance? Do you eliminate the toxins properly? And that actually turns out is one of the root causes of chronic disease is when you have a phase one and phase two detox. Balance. So we look at the basics on the tree, we also look at the root system. So it is uncovering the root that's, what functional medicine is working with.

Wade Lightheart: Great explanation. Thank you so much for that. So let's talk about how this difference from spec spectrum or standard care. So let's say a person has just gone through say major heart surgery or something like that, or some sort of invasive, acute trauma experience, or they've had to do for whatever reason. And they contact you like they are okay, I'm home from the hospital. Now what?

Christine Roche: The first thing we look at is whenever you have major trauma like surgery what happens in the hospital, people get a lot of drugs at that time and it turns out that the medications were just so lifesaving and very important that affect the lining of the gut. And so the first thing I look at, wow, you've been through a lot. You know, what happened to you? We're looking at inflammation, we're looking at what meds did you take and how can you repair your gap after surgery?

Wade Lightheart: Exactly. So let's talk about that for a little bit. So I always say I kind of get into this and you're talking about diet, and I noticed that you have an observation that I've come to the same conclusion. And that is that our society has modern food production and distribution has radically altered the food chain that we are dealing with. How do you feel that the kind of the modern food consumption program has changed and how that affects the digestive inner immune systems?

Christine Roche: Yes. Thank you for asking that because that's actually one of the things I want to bring up now by sharing the screen here of what, what I see, because I think that's very important. People are asking all the time what's going on nowadays, you know, that's different. So first of all, due to the fact that we've been industrialised food system, which has only been around for the last hundred years or so, you, when you walk into a supermarket, what do you see? You know, lots of packages. So what's happening is the average American consume so much sugar, you know, 75 to a hundred pounds a year. And what that sugar is, it's a drug, it's not a food. And also we have unfortunately so much processed food now in genetically modified food. The GMO food actually affect what happens in the brain.

Christine Roche: So the gut-brain is linked that when you eat genetically modified food, which is in everything that is now being put out, unless it is certified organic. So what's happened is that we have not only the nature of the food, we processed it, we've packaged it. And you know yourself, if you go to your garden and you'd a strawberry and you taste it, or you go to Safeway and you hold it in your hand, I always ask my listeners to smell your vegetables. When you go to the farmer's market versus in Safeway where there've been sitting there, the longer they sit there, we're talking about the bioavailability of nutrients. Even though we have an obesity epidemic, Wade, we have malnourishment and malabsorption in most of the population.

Wade Lightheart: I call obesity a disease of starvation. People think why is that? And you have to realize is people are overeating calories and under eating nutrients. One of the principles that we teach is nutrification, how much nutrients are you actually absorbing and utilizing inside your body, determines a lot of different things, including your weight or how you feel or the energy you have. And then of course, longterm, you set up various disease pathways. This is a really interesting chart for those who are watching on YouTube. Can you kind of show the components where you're seeing this rise in asthma, diabetes, multiple sclerosis and Chrohn's disease? I mean, it's kind of going off the charts here is what do you, what do you correlate that with these immune disorders?

Christine Roche: It is a dramatic rise including cancer in the last decade, especially part of that has to do with the increased use of industrial pesticides and herbicides. I encourage all the listeners to eat only a hundred percent certified organic, no matter what your health status, because now in the last few years there's been a doubling and tripling of absolutely increasing pesticides, genetic modification and Roundup, by the way the data shows that even Quaker oats from the shell has a hefty dose around out. So the latest information is that Roundup is in even organic food and traces, and it's in a hefty dose in all restaurant food in our groundwater, we have just proliferated, unfortunately, the pesticides, the herbicides, in addition to all the antibiotics that people have been given the C-section births and then the processed food, the ability of like you said, nutrient starvation and also the combination with the phase one and phase two being out of balance, it's very serious. What's happening.

Wade Lightheart: It's, it's kind of, I find it so interesting that we're taking on all these parameters and there's always these funding for more research and more medical stuff and more drugs and more of these things.

Wade Lightheart: And yet, so little direction from our government and medical institutions is actually looking at the food. And that's what we brought you onto the show, a boat, because not only is it the food, but it's also the state of your digestive system in order to utilize that food. And also the state of your digestion in order to fight off invaders or pathogens or whatever. Can you share with us how an area that I'm really fascinated with is how gut bacteria and its interrelationship between neuro-transmitters and brain function. And so many people suffering from ADD or inability to focus or anxiety situ situations. They're going from antidepressant to antidepressant, to antidepressant, or neurotransmitting balancing for all these sorts of things. And I've observed that when people clean up their guts, oftentimes many of those symptoms start to go away. What's your research been showing about this era? Cause I think this is going to be the next big breakthrough area in the world of psychological science and health science.

Christine Roche: Yes, it is. Absolutely. And so what's happening is that as you can see in the slide, there are mood and your gut bacteria, you under a transmitters are intricately linked and what is going on. Actually, if you have a raise, all these glyphosates are missing without gap, right? Because they are affecting the pathways where we make our own neurotransmitters. So we have that epidemic of depression and anxiety in this country, more than ever before. And it's related to the glyphosates. It's also, we have an epidemic of this brain fog that's going on, which also has to do with an overgrowth of bacteria in the gut, depression, anxiety are very much connected to the bacteria memory bloating. The brains and thumbs are very much that linked in all the research, you know, the pressure and brain fog, poor memory, inability to focus with the gut symptoms and this get bacteria what's going on is that gut pathology is linked with brain pathology. And in order to make the right neurotransmitters in say our tone, and it's both the food that we need to absorb, however, to do that, we need to have a healthy microbial landscape, a diverse microbial landscape and abundance of the bacteria.

Wade Lightheart: I'm so glad that you mentioned this recently, we produced a project called the CogniBiotics, which deals with the various bacteria that actually form neuro-transmitters along with the prebiotics and Chinese herbs and these types of things. Let's dive into this right here. I see you've got a slide up here, I think, which is really awesome for people to understand of how important these strains, which, you know, at one time was naturally occurring on the food we ate. We just wipe the dirt off their food, or we didn't have, we weren't so highly antiseptic. And then there's benefits to the antiseptic world, the antibacterial world, but we're killing the, and the bad and we need these good guys. Can you talk about these particular types of bacteria species in their influence on the neurotransmitter and say maybe what that neurotransmitter is responsible for? It was a big question.

Christine Roche: Yes, exactly. Thank you. Wait. So the lack there, bacillus and bifidobacterium species produce also the GABA, which has to do with keeping the nervous system balance, the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. It affects our sleep and how we make serotonin. "Feel Good" hormone saratonin is produced properly.

Wade Lightheart: One of the things that I've done with people just to interject for a second, I used to live in Vancouver, I just recently moved from there, but there's a great tea shop. It's Oh, five tea shop and they get these rare Chinese teas and there's this fermented tea that I would drink. And it releases Gabba. And based on how people would respond to that, I could tell whether they were deficient, cause they would drink this tea and they'd get a big gathering, like, Oh my goodness, I feel really relaxed. I'm like, you need to check your guts. I bet you don't have the bacteria. So yes, that was a little hack that I would throw in there to see.

Christine Roche: That's great. Because you know, you can take all this, you could take bacteria by mouth, just randomly from my health shop. And without that he can produce by your body without the proper landscape, which we'll talk about, you know, the fertilizing of the bacteria.

Wade Lightheart: I don't know if you have a neurotransmitter tests that you recommend, like there's neurotransmitter dominance. Do you have any testing to determine what people's neuro-transmitters are?

Christine Roche: I accurately routinely test neuro-transmitters. I do salivary testing through gender with agnostics. Yeah. Also other companies that I use where we test all the neurotransmitters to see urine tests, salivary test, to see what is going on at right now and what's needed.

Wade Lightheart: That's so great. I learned about this from a fellow by the name of Charles Paula Quinn, who trained 27 different gold medals in 27 different sports. And he would do neurotransmitter testing for his athletes prior to determine which neurotransmitter dominance they had, because that was a connection that he made with Chinese medicine. And he said, that was the only connection that he could find between Chinese medicine and Western medicine. And he would determine this by how much tolerance that they would actually have for exercise. He'd have two athletes in the same sport and he would train them completely differently because of their neurotransmitter dominance. And I think a lot of people underestimate how important this is to see how people perceive the world or how they function in the world. Please keep going. I love this stuff. I love this stuff.

Christine Roche: So escherichia and bifidobacterium and Saccharomyces produce norepinephrine. So again a lot of people run around all day long with being unable to manage their cortisol. You've probably heard about that people unable to sleep or they are actually in too high cortisol at certain times of day or through low. So that's what we measure. And then also the tolerance for exercise is very much affected. So here are the bacteria that are important to balance. Again, the things we need, the feel good hormones. So see I'm telling them the epinephrine, norepinephrine and GABA has to be in the right amount. So if you give adequate lactobacillus and bifido, and also then the Saccharomyces and Serratia produces dopamine and dopamine is such a wonderful neurotransmitter as you know, for feel good. And also having the resilience that you need when you're exercising.

Wade Lightheart: Talk about that for a little bit. Thanks to these little devices. I always call it it's a light, it's a deliver a drug delivery system of light that accesses our inner pharmacy. And so many people are kind of blowing out their dopamine system from these things. Do you feel that by getting this kind of gut testing and introducing maybe the bacteria that they made, that people are far better about getting rid of the anxiety or the stress or the burnout from, are kind of digitally or digitally enhanced cells, I guess now we've kind of got this kind of digital extension of our minds that we haven't really adapted to yet as a species.

Christine Roche: Yes, exactly. That is a great Gretchen rate because it turns out that the date and now the latest research shows that EMF radiation actually reduces the amount of good bacteria in the gut. So even if you have taken this and let's say, you've cultivated your soil, I do a course for people on how to reduce EMF, sensitivity, what to do in their home. I've paired with a building biologist and we'll talk to people on zoom or Skype and go through the basics that affect the microbiome, but it is the research shows that it actually increase. The proliferation of pathogens are actually increased with this exposure. The more we're exposed, the more equal life would thrive and the more the bad pathogens.

Wade Lightheart: So I got a quick question, cause it's coming out, I know we're in the COVID craziness and all that sort of stuff. And of course we can't make any statements and all that stuff on the internet, worlds of any treatment or disease, but doesn't this quarantine people locking them up, getting them out of the sunlight, subjecting them to stress, anxiety, putting them in an EMF wave. And now we're having lockdowns on top of that for these things. Is this just a recipe for like our neurotransmitters in our gut bacteria to just go absolutely haywire and make us more susceptible to disease?
Christine Roche: Yes, I agree.

Wade Lightheart: So what does a person do? It's also, ultimately as individuals, we don't have the power to change policy, at least not in the short term, how do we manage the current situation for our families and ourselves to give ourselves the best fighting chance to keep our immunity up? As we undergo this kind of challenge in the world, do you have any suggestions that people should do to kind of boost them up to make themselves resilient? Cause I'm always a guy like, Hey, I can't control the internal environment, but I can build myself up so I can better handle that.

Christine Roche: Yes, absolutely. I have been working for months with the best researchers and physicians in Europe and the United States. So look at this very closely on what can you do? So number one is evaluate for gut permeability because gut permeability is one of the biggest risk factors with everything you just mentioned, pop of that. So our office does a urine test that we ship all over the world for gut permeability. And it's very easy to do because what happens when the gut is permeable, as you've talked about many times, you've got these antigenic response already, you raise your inflammatory levels. And so one of the things about this is that if you are getting less time outside, you know, the time outside balances you, it makes you more resilient in all aspects, especially against the EMS. The key is to get outside every day to put the feet on the ground with this kind of situation, the stress of this. And then to make sure that, you know, if you have leaky gut and repair it, if your gut is overgrowing bad bacteria, I just read the latest data from the Chinese studies of who died. And amazingly enough that the conclusions are the imbalances in the gut. Microbiota may make the difference between those who showed no symptoms with covid, those who get very sick and those who die.

Wade Lightheart: Wow, that is, that is very powerful information. That's coming from the research, this isn't pie in the sky stuff. Hopefully we'll be able to get some of these links that people can see this stuff and read for themselves. Cause we have a lot of practitioners that are out there looking. So let's talk about a couple other things here that I think is really good. Like how do we find out about our microbial competence composition? So like what kind of tests can people take? We think it's a great area to go in. What are some of the tests that can go? So they're not just randomly guessing. Oh, you know, cause I think that's a mistake. A lot of your lie. I heard this person or I felt this, therefore I should do that. Can you talk about some of the tests that people can do?

Christine Roche: So remotely, I've got it right here. Why guess when you can test? So one of the aspects of his weight is also that we need to look at what's happening right now with your microbiome. And the great news is which I'm offering to the listeners, I'm going to be offering a functional, a comprehensive DNA PCR that just they've tested the top of the line in the market that just came out in January. And what it is is that this has to do it all in your own home. You collect your stool for three days in your home gets picked up from the international carrier or local carrier FedEx. And what it does is it identifies which I wrote go over in detail, their complete microbiome, the DNA of your, all that, the millions of bacteria that are there.
Christine Roche: We have a hundred trillion organisms in the body and 10 times the number of cells, hundred 50 times as many genes and genes as we have. So the bottom line is the importance of functional passing is not only do you see all this, the test we use has FDA, the European Union approved probes. They are independently tested to make sure that what you see is validated by an independent party with the probes to access your complete bacteriology, all the yeast overgrowth. Yes or no, but it also shows all of the bacterial strains. If they're in abundance, exactly how much, if they're missing, in addition to digestion, absorption, everything about it. You absorb your nutrients, what do you need? What are the beneficial flora and what are the bad bacteria? Now, this is the key. This relates the other question.

Christine Roche: If you have this biopic or a bad overgrowth, like Klebsiella pneumoniae, the data shows that when you have that, that's when you are ready, inflamed and bent, that has to do with the severe response with covid that ecological fingerprint, your unique fingerprint is out of balance. So this is what it identifies the flora that got the immune system. So you'll get a marker of exactly how your immune system is inflammation, pancreatic insufficiency. And then here are the benefits, noninvasive early markers of gut function. We don't wait until the colonoscopy shows. There's advanced disease. We look very early years before that would happen and it identifies the root cause and provides lasting solutions.

Wade Lightheart: Beautiful stuff. Can you talk about that? So I guess we kinda issued this, but let's just talk about viruses that come around. And of course, again, we have to say, we're not suggesting any treatment or cure or anything else of this sort of nature, but in times of these kinds of things that are going around with viral infections, which happen all the time, can you discuss how the microbiome actually protects us from this situation?

Christine Roche: Yes, exactly. So, as I was mentioningone of the things that's very important is your D3 levels also in standard medicine, there's a marker that says D3 at 30 is fine. The number 30, when it comes up on your results and with COVID and other viruses, you're D3 needs to be at 60. Minimum 60. And so that interfaces with the gut, also that D3 levels are crucial. So one of the things that got what we look at with the gut and the microbiome is it's your own unique microbial, fingerprint? How is your terrain? Are you acid or alkaline? Do you have leaky gut? How are your D levels, how are your vitamin C levels in yourselves? Because IVC has been shown that people who are at home with IVC don't even have this go to the hospital. I mean, there's a lot of data on IVC being very effective. The greatest news that I have for you, which is really exciting, there's a recent study that shows that people who took a combination of certain gut bacteria for 30 days, and then the flu was introduced 70% reduction in actually getting the flu in those people who were measured with having healthy guts, no leaky gut and healthy gut bacteria, 70 points for reduction flus, 39% reduction in colds.

Wade Lightheart: That's an incredible number for people to recognize. And how is it that you've been able to kind of come to these conclusions? What is it, what does that allow you to kind of like figure all this stuff out? It's pretty amazing.

Christine Roche: Yes. Well, you know, what's exciting is that the lungs have their own microbiome. You know, how serious it is for certain viruses that go directly to the lines and cause very serious concerns. It turns out that the lung has its own micro microbial landscape and when you pick up and the lung are connected, just like there's a gut and brain access, there's a gap and lung axes. And the data is very consistent. That shows that when you make sure that, that in the lungs, that's growing is your friend and he's healthy. It is going to protect you from the severity or even having the disease.

Wade Lightheart: That's beautiful. I think it's really fascinating how this whole field of gut health and our immune system and that, you know, how we've compromised it with the chemical world and how we're really under attack from what we're eating, what we're consuming, stuff like that. But I noticed a lot of people when they have various digestive issues, they get skin disorders such as psoriasis or things will pop out or they get acne or very things. Can you talk about how disorders such as this kind of show up on the skin, how it's linked to our gut health.

Christine Roche: Exactly. We tested the gut of hundreds of people that had psoriasis and other types of XML, skin disorders. What we've found is that each one of them had a disordered landscape. Each one of them showed one or more bacteria that was pathogenic that was growing inside the gut. Now, how do they get there? I can get there through process. If you process food, if you are very deficient in certain types of bacteria, the other one can overgrow that's right. But the microbiome needs to be very robust with certain species that keep, you know, and it's a large group of species and they die off under stress. They die off when you can't go outside anymore. When you're stressed that the higher the stress, the more that dies off the higher, the EMF, the more they die off medications, even one over the counter medication kills it off.

Christine Roche: And so we found those people and we have one after the other, we had to look at with the gov has thing, where is this sort of bacteria? How much do you have? How are you eating? Are you, are you drinking quality water? It turned out some patients were drinking water that were the ingredients in the tap water or prescription drugs and toxins, which was killing their microbiome. So we had, how are you eating? How are you drinking? We looked at their whole lifestyle. What's your stress level? We did a three months implementation of all of these lifestyle factors with the microbiome. I would say 95% of those people are free, completely free of skin disorders a year later.
Wade Lightheart: It's interesting because you bring up a great topic we have in BiOptimizers. We call it the awesome health course, which is an acronym for what helps you be healthy: air, water, exercise, sunlight, optimizers, mental beliefs, and attitude, education testing, and coaching, and each forming kind of pillars that you kind of go through. And we have that in the course and you bring up something that's really important and that's water. And I have I'm on a mission for people to understand, is that okay. You live in a municipality and the municipality puts a variety of chemicals in the water to kill the bacteria the bad bacteria, but we ingest those. If we're drinking things like tap water and making sure that we protect ourselves from the chemical agents, which are ridding the bad guys, is just as important as having those agents to kit the red bad guys. What do you suggest in around water consumption and the microbiome health and how that influence is? What do you have any particular suggestions on that?

Christine Roche: I recommend it generally speaking. It depends on the municipality. I recommend having your water tested. I am expert company, because what I've found is that for example, rehab here, chloramines, which are very hard to get rid of and, you know, you have to not reverse. Osmosis does not remove chloramines. And so what we do is we get people's homes are tested. They either install a whole house filter, and we make sure we target whatever's going on in their water. But the key is drinking 8 to 10 glasses, obviously, depending on how much, but also the minerals are so important. So I'm sure that you have your minerals that get added to the water because we found that those people who actually have the most got impairment around their skin and their autoimmune disorder, each one of them had an issue with both enough water and also taking in nutrients. They all had nutrient impairment. So that malabsorbing, and that they don't have the bacteria to absorb. So they're actually producing more and more bad bacteria around. And the water was adding to that.

Wade Lightheart: I love that you're saying this because one of the things that we have in our line is primary gen M and primer gen V, which are colloidal based mineral products that are highly absorbable drops that I add into my water. And I sip throughout the day to make sure that I'm getting all these things inside my water. And I think these are simple, simple things. They don't take much time. They don't take as much money, but they have these profound effects on our bodies ecology over time, especially when you're applying that. Yeah. I would like to talk about leaky gut because I think this is the thing that you, you kind of touched on it, but I want people to kind of understand. I think so many people are suffering from leaky gut to varying degrees. And we talked about chemicals. Like Roundup is s a huge, I always say herbicides, pesticides, fungicides rhyme with homicide and suicide.

Christine Roche: It is really incredible. And what happens actually is that I have actually on my site here and what I'm looking at is I'm going to go back up here. So this is a very important one here is that I'm just gonna share this over here. And this has to do with the importance of knowing that, you know, leaky gut is affect all of this, the whole body. It shows how the intestines are connected to the whole body and what it is while it is intestinal. Permeability if you imagine the lining of the gut, which is a barrier, it's like a net with extremely small openings that allows only specific substances to get through. So the gut lining, you know, as I said, is like a barrier than if the net has been damaged.

Christine Roche: And the key is with damage is prescription drugs over the counter. And that's why after a hospitalization, we have to address this. It's medications, it's the water and it is the genetically modified food around us, as well as psychological issues. Stress. What we've been going through with covid is the fear. It is really on all levels, emotional, physical, you know, every level. And what happens is the net's been damaged and bigger holes and openings develop in their net where undigested food, toxins and bacteria are allowed to pass through. They can leak inside the bloodstream through the wall of the gut causing an antigenic outer immune reaction. And basically what, what Fasano has said, who's a UCLA researcher. He said that gut bacteria can unzip the tight junctions in the gut causing a perfect storm and see if that's when all the physicians agree in Europe rate. And the United States that if you have this now is the time to test and repair it. You have to test it to see how much, but you've got to repair it now, because if you have any of these things that are shown here, leaky gut is at the root cause of it.

Wade Lightheart: It's so interesting this area. At BiOptimizers, we actually have our research scientists that are running a variety of tests with our products to see how they are involved in repair of a tissue. I'd like to know specifically, I know it's like IGY max and bone broth and these things are traditionally used. Have you worked with those kind of ingredients? Are those type of things that you do use to help seal the gut properly?
Christine Roche: The first thing that I do is the five heat feeling foods. So the important thing is bone broth. Bone broth contains college at the immuno acids, as you knowing glycine that helps repair damaged cell walls. And so bone broth coping that key for non non-beer culture theory,hat is one of the best. The whole coconut yogurt, coconut probiotic. I use fermented vegetables as number one. They balance the pH and the probiotics to support the gut. Most of my clients on our clinic, we give them examples of this is what you want to eat before your meal have your fermented, because for man, it provides the soil that the soil that the probiotics skin and take root in. And without the proper landscape information, if you just throw these probiotics, it's like throwing vegetables in the garden without fertilizing the soil, you know, it's, it's, your microbiome has to be fertilized.

Wade Lightheart: Yeah. I think people have to recognize is that the lifespan of a bacteria is very, very short. And if they don't have the food, it requires to live they're dead within 24 hours like that specie is gone. So fusing that not only the right probiotics that are going to help you, but with the white prebiotic foods and components, so that you're cultivating the right environment for these to kind of get traction and take hold and do all the wonderful things they do is part of the science that we're a part of. And we're seeing start to, like, it's not just randomly throwing in a bunch of bacteria into a capsule and saying, here you go. This needs to have some background in some science. And also some testing I would suggest. And we're going to put a note in here about your testing.

Wade Lightheart: We'll talk about that near the end of the call. So people can access the test and get specifics on them. Cause you can save yourself a lot of time and a lot of money and a lot of effort to get, Hey, this is what you need, because what may be like, I'm a, a plant based guy, myself. I only eat plant based foods. And my business partner is on a ketogenic diet. Like we're as far apart on the spectrum, as you can get. I guess if I was completely raw and he was carnival completely, that would be the only step we could go as far as sigmas away from each other, but our microbiomes would be radically different. And what kinds of probiotics or prebiotics or what else would be different? Would you say that's accurate?

Christine Roche: Yes. Very different. And also your bacterial, how the balances of the pathogenic, the good bacteria would be very different. How your CA your immune system works, how your digestion, absorption markers, your short chain, fatty acidsand everything would be looked at as far as your unique fingerprint, microbial landscape.

Wade Lightheart: This is fascinating stuff. So I think it's really important because people are like do I have leaky gut? They're probably listening, going, maybe I have leaky gut. It feels like, what are some of the signs that people have that would indicate that they have leaky gut?

Christine Roche: Okay. So one of the signs actually of leaky gut is having bloating and abdominal distention that can also be related to many other things that people would leaky out report that they feel like they're full after the meal, their stomach, the stands, there's a feeling. They have a lot of concerns about digestion. They feel like they're not that jesting properly heartburn is, is also often associated with that. It could be a whole range of things. It varies from person to person, a lot of it has to do with the person feeling like that they are not properly absorbing or digesting their food. They keep getting signs that they're not all right. But the most important thing is causing patient diarrhea, bloating, abdominal distention is a key factor.

Wade Lightheart: Is there any foods that you find that can help with those things besides just bone broth?
Christine Roche: So what's really important is that we also look at other, they have food allergies. So I test for food allergies as sprouted seeds are excellent. Black seeds are really good foods for leaky gut, coconut products because of the medium chain, fatty acids are especially good. So anything from the coconut that fermented vegetable, the bone broth, and then also the vegetables, the organic vegetables that really heal the gut, you know? Like asparagus is really helpful. We look at many different veggies that specifically are easy to digest that's the key.

Wade Lightheart: Beautiful. Now let me ask the question. You bring people because generally if you're entered into some sort of people do testing and stuff, and then they find out they have something, if there's usually some sort of systematized process that people need to go through and because it's not all, you can't always fix all this in one shot, I would say you've been on the planet 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years, whatever it is. You've done all these things to get to a certain point. There's going to be a period of time to recover from that. So typically how long does it take someone to recover from one of these conditions and is there a step by step process? And is there like kind of check points, some people move through them faster than others. Have you developed anything around that?

Christine Roche: Oh yes, definitely. So the first step we do is an in depth intake of course, to see what their is like, because if people are highly stressed and if they're on prescription drugs, we have them list all the drugs, you know, the supplement, certain drugs make it very difficult, the healing pick up.

Wade Lightheart: What are some of those drugs, by the way?

Christine Roche: All the area with non-steroids inflammatory, just take Tylenol once or twice a week. It affects the lining in some people can be pretty severe if it's on a regular basis and steroids, of course, you know, antibiotics, obviously all, mostly the drugs that right now that are given for infections and all that are highly in the gut. They oftentimes are connected with leaky gut. The other is people have been eating genetically modified food. We do a thorough study. If they've eaten food with pesticides, GMO medication, high stress, their lifestyle is such that they're not getting outside much. Their EMF exposure is over the top. We know what we have to do is first of all, identify the extent of the leaky gut. So the first thing is when you do in-home tests, we see exactly how low, medium, high exactly what level your leaky gut is.

Christine Roche: Then we implement the guthealing protocols, but we start with nutrition. We need to make sure that the person's able to get the better foods, count the stress down. So we'd have a systematic approach of the first three months. We use that just at enzymes, depending on the test, we're using our glutamine in certain cases and be careful with L glutamine people on prescription drugs. We have to evaluate that, but licorice root, we've got. I'm certainly interested in your formulas. See what we have formulas that people take every day that actually are like licorice root, marshmallow root, all these things, natural substances that start to repair the lining.

Wade Lightheart: I think it's so fast and it's amazing how people are impacted by this now at, BiOptimizers. We have, what we call the, the BiOptimizers triangle which focuses on aesthetics performance and health in reground the microbiome. How do you see that? It optimizes say, we've talked a lot about health, but how do you see it impacting maybe various medical conditions or in performance related side of things for people who are into the highest level.

Christine Roche: I actually have a great study here that I'm going to bring up because I did some research to look at the latest research on the microbiomes. I'm going to share my screen here with what you're asking. And so basically what very exciting is that the breast cancer research from the Cleveland clinic, this is in 2017, showed that the breast has its own mini microbiome, that samples of breast cancer patients has showed increased levels of this biotic, this ordered bacteria and all the women that have breast cancer at that. When you fortify the gap, then you get rid of these. You can get rid of this biotic bacteria that this ordered with natural methods, natural antimicrobial, I go target a premiere journal, showed the results of that. These bacterias are present just like they're present in the lungs of people that get COVID and end up in the ICU and possibly die because this ordered bacteria, the inflammation that came to those women from that. There's also a great study that shows microbiome response to Immunotherapy that a highly diverse got microbes through much better.

Christine Roche: If you have less of the bacteroides metamorphic, those three deals you're going to do better. I was present in the best outcome with immunotherapy it's incredible what it shows in terms of microbiome and cancer. You know, the studies show that probiotics bind to toxins and food based carcinogen reduce bacterial enzymes in the colon that promote cancer. That's actually been studied from the proceedings of the National Academy of Science show that probiotics and slow the growth of certain cancers that they act or implement that we don't hear about that that much, unfortunately, because we're not allowed as you said enough. And you know, I'm not actually teaching at course in Stanford medical school with a resident on the microbiome because these physicians are going to practice. They have no idea what it is. They want to know more about the data.

Christine Roche: And so Crohn's disease very significant change with groans and with the effect on crones and how it affects the outcome of crones that bacteria ms. Amazing results in studies with in, again, what happens is that these particular bacterias stimulate the interleukin 10 Howard's expressed. And I think that's something that we have not heard that much about in all the COVID reporting is what happens with people who are of a healthier gut in terms of reducing inflammation. Because if you start out with any virus and your inflammation is high, you're going to have very severe effect. And there's lots of other studies that got bacteria promoted by dietary fibers affected type two diabetes. Parkinson's, you know, regulating motor fits in there, inflammation, pesticide exposure with the altered microbiome affected the Parkinson's. So this is huge data that we're gathering.

Wade Lightheart: You know, it's, it's so fascinating because when we started this conversation, we talked about Hippocrates identifying thousands of years ago that all disease begins in the gut. He also said let food be your medicine and medicine - your food. Now of course, what a lot of people don't recognize in these ancient times, we didn't have herbicides. We didn't have pesticides, we didn't have antibacterials. We didn't have vaccines. We didn't have statin drugs. We didn't have all of these components that are the modern methodology, the modern arsenal of treating situations in a short term, very aggressively, but have longterm consequences. And almost everybody has been subjected to these either directly or inadvertently through our food chain or environmental components. So if you look at our digestive system, it's like, we're living in a city and the transport system to bring the food to the store and deliver it to your body as the first half of the gut. And the last half is the sewer system. And if you get a problem with any one of those, the city doesn't work very well. So based on all this, I'm just going to throw this out there as a theory, there's all this talk about a vaccine for this virus, a vaccine doesn't correct. Their microbiome does it.

Christine Roche: That's correct. As a matter of fact, they can alter the microbiome I spoke with this is directly from one of the leading researchers in Europe, the physicians that I speak to regularly. And they said actually that Northern Italy had received a vaccine for meningitis two months before the COVID outbreak that had been given a triple flu vaccine with the meningitis component. And that he feels is one of the reasons that left the immune system wide open because when you do vaccines, he said, the immune system actually is weakened for a while.

Wade Lightheart: The amount of deaths that are happening in nursing homes with seniors and stuff. And of course you see a lot of those people they all have to take their flu shots and all these sorts of things every single year. And they're very meticulous about that. Do you think with the age and the compromisation that can come from these shots at that will be potentially a contributing factor to those situations?
Christine Roche: You know, actually what it is, is that they found that people in nursing homes at very low, the three levels also be three regulates. Every organ in the body is connected to the microbiome and their eating processed foods. So you have the perfect storm because the age itself, you know, there's some older people that do quite well with that, but they're eating, healthy food. Their microbiome is very ordered and those people got through it and said, Hey, I'm 90. I survived. COVID the nursing home environment is filled with, there's processed food, those vaccines, there's all the scription drugs everyday. And so they're already weekened when the virus comes along.

Wade Lightheart: I was in Venice when this whole thing broke out. And just before they did the lockdowns and I instantly got in my car and drove over here to one of our researchers house. We have a long, we've been friends forever, and she has an adjacent apartment to our SSO. I'm renting the apartment. And I'm out here in the desert every day, walking around in the sunshine to build up my vitamin D levels because it's such a control. Can you talk about the role of vitamin D in regulating our microbiome or improving proving this? Because I think one of the studies I saw was that persons of color have a higher disproportion of amount of deaths.

Wade Lightheart: I was like something like 27 times or whatever. And of course, darker skin is an adaptation to high levels of sunlight so that you can tolerate in Southern climates, like, that's why my skin is now getting quite tanned, even though I'm quite pale, I'm spending several hours out in the desert and the sand and my skin is adapting and getting darker. So I have higher tolerance. Can you talk about why it's so important for people to get sunshine for their immune system, especially if your genetics have darker skin it's even more critical because white skin means that we've adapted to Northern environments. My ancestors and I can get more vitamin D in a short period of time than someone who has dark skin. And for all my brothers and sisters who have dark skin, and we need to share this information with them, they need to get the sun even more so than myself.

Christine Roche: Yes. Well, that's very important. You know, dr. Andrew Weil who's been a mentor of mine and colleague for many years actually says that you can only get so much vitamin D in the Western hemisphere in where we live here from the sun. He agrees that if you've got darker skinnyou need to spend more time in the sun and spending time in the sun is good. However, with the ozone level, it changes in the last few years, we're getting a type of light that is also altered. And so I think the most important thing is for people to test that D3 at home. Now they have different tests. You can just do a finger prick in the privacy of your home. And if you are at 20 or 30, people can contact me, or whoever wants to contact me what we're going to give out at the end. I'm happy to show them how the gradually increase it. But I agree. It's a combination because the research actually shows, yes, you need to do the sun. However, in some cases, because of the other factors, because of the depletion of the changes in the environment, you still need to know where you are with D3 and supplement. Even if you spend a lot of time in the sun, it's critical to get the 60.

Wade Lightheart: Typically, what is the type of supplementation on a daily pace is that say you would see in a range of people for vitamin D3?

Christine Roche: 5,000, I use the maintenance and that would be in a liquid form. I use a liquid as opposed to a capsule. I try to minimize that for the absorption that people don't have the breakdown, a capsular. The other is to test every six months, sometimes every three months, if it's low, that it can be a situation where you have to boost at very high doses, then the 5,000 is maintenance. And then what you need to do is to also at the slightest onset, take 10,000 to 20,000 every day, along with your vitamin C, those are the two scientifically proven aspects for viruses. IVC are very high doses of CE every hour with vitamin A and D3, you know, but the key is the testing. You see, because even if you're in the sun a lot just like with the microbiome that 3D road work together with the gut bacteria that help balance the gut bacteria.

Wade Lightheart: It's so amazing how so much of our lives and our health is dominated by sunshine, the interrelation through a solar radiation, essentially. And it's a role in mutation of genetics. It's a role in a function of our circadian rhythms. And of course, with our microbiome and how essential it is. And as this society, we've actually just moved indoors over, that's another part. And I always see, I see sunlight and light as part of our food supply, as part of our lights and everything. It's a solar system for a reason. It feeds the plants, it feeds the animals, it feeds the people. It makes the oceans, it makes everything happen. It's the sunshine here on the planet. It's almost impossible to get enough.

Christine Roche: That is the thing. And I just show you one of these slides here really related to that the five R'S of gut help us to remove the bad bacteria as we talked about. There's some nearly significant issues with viruses, with the people eating gluten is a key component of leaky gut and almost everything contains gluten that's modified repair the lining and reinoculate. And this is the key is red has to be retested. And I just want to mention that probiotics actually help manufacture your vitamins and ferment your fibers, help you digest and make anti tumor and anti inflammatory factors. So this is my modulating, like you said, so with D3, the probiotics together, have you actually make the anti-inflammatory factors that you need?

Wade Lightheart: You know, that's great we talk about this. And we categories enzymes and probiotics as the workers inside the body and everything else is raw materials. And of course you can imagine light is like the electricity coming into the system that powers the factory with our enzymes and our probiotics to start converting our food into these essential building blocks or energy units that fuel the mitochondrion and deliver the essential things to kind of build up the cells of our body. And I think if we think in terms of this, it's very powerful. Talk about this. I see you got into this side of the probiotic balance.

Christine Roche: So this is about that. We don't think of probiotics being related to cholesterol, right? The key is that they actually help us with the toxifying and moving toxins out of the body. So there's different species that many people are low in that actually removed the toxins, maintain a normal pH balance and regulate the metabolism of cholesterol. It's incredible. And then also they improve the absorption of nutrients we cannot absorb, or that just our food with the right probiotics, but they must be strained specific to make our vitamins, like vitamin D vitamin is very important. So taking the formula that has K in it, and then also in order to make up B vitamins, we need to have the right bacteria. They're not all equal because you can't just go to a health shop and buy anything randomly. It has to be strained, specific species and you have to know what you're missing and what you need. So they're not created equal. I think people ask me, can I just buy something at a health food store? And this is the key. When you are replenishing, they have to be customized to you. They need to be independent essay tests that before you buy them strain specific rotation of different strains. So that's one of the keys that we do.

Wade Lightheart: Beautifully, beautifully said. I think this is so great because there's so much components that are involved here. And I could just talk to you forever, but I think we're at the stage where we're going. We're gonna kind of talk about if there's anything particularly that we missed in this talk that you feel that we could kind of get into, cause we've covered so many different things. And then I want to find out some amazing tests you've got available that people can take no matter where they are in the world, they can contact you and get a specific test, figure out exactly, move from shotgunning, random things into like ice called precision targets, sniper, fire, you know, where you get right down. Can you share anything that we've missed that you want it to cover particularly, and then your tests?

Christine Roche: Yeah, I think one of the things that's so important, you know, as food as medicine, I mean, we really do like very specifically at the foods that you're eating and how those foods are related to the microbiome how they work together with this. I think the other thing is that it's important to know that when you do your testing, it also measures what you're sensitive to. I mean, it identifies all the imbalances and all these markers I'm showing, but also shows which particular microbes and which particular anti-microbials will be helpful. So this is where, as you said, the customized approach that it's really taking your microbial fingerprint would be different from your partners and saying I'm weights tests. What I see is that berberine and grapefruit seed is what's going to kill off certain kinds of strains that affect you have overgrown, whereas in someone else completely different.

Christine Roche: So what I want to mention is that you do have those independent assays that show you exactly in the test, which bacteria is sensitive to what and which one that you have to build up with. I also want to show this here. And, you know, we talked about this, all the centurions, that cultures in the blue zones, which I'm sure many of your listeners are aware of consume fermented products, such as kim chi, sauerkraut, and culture food. So in other words, it's uniform among all the studies that the people who reached the highest age are the ones that have been having that resilience in their gap. You know, the leaky gut, there's no leaky gut. There is a vitality of the microbes and they're all eating these cultured foods, food as medicine, they are not exposed to the level of toxins, which brings me to a very important piece way that we haven't covered is that I actually test people's ability in phase one and phase two, redo it to know what test that shows are you able to pack up your toxins and move them out? If you are not, that is going to interact with the microbiome. And you're going to need certain factors, certain nutrients that are specific to you that will help you release the toxins. Because as you know, in this toxic society, that's the biggest risk factor for the viruses for everything. It's toxification.

Wade Lightheart: I love this slide with the centurions. I lived on a street that literally a small village in new Brunswick, Canada. We had four individuals who lived over a hundred years old, one who's still alive today. She's 102 years old and virtually every scene you sit in there, everybody made it to their nineties, on nurse, on our little street, we're talking like a high concentration. Everybody made sauerkraut. Everybody made these fermented pickles and all these things. Everybody grew their own garden and grew with organic materials. Everybody had a well that had clean water and a very relaxing lifestyle. And then later had the opportunity to go to the Okinawa, which is one of the longest living cultures in the world where they really celebrate old age and sell it in such a vibrant way. And I was overwhelmed when I was eating the foods and the fermented vegetables and things that they had there. And I would put this stuff in my body and my body would just light up and I'd go, wow. I moved. There is something, I have no idea what this is, but my body's telling me, this is amazing for me.

Christine Roche: Yeah. And your watch is telling also is the vibrancy of the food. I always say to people, measure your MPH, first thing in the morning to see if your acid alkaline then eat one of those vibrant foods. You know, like some of the people living in the back country, the food is just vibrant. And then they would measure their pH and they go. It's phenomenal within a week of eating. So we really need to say as you've been indicating all along that the, I think one of the keys is that vibrancy of the nutrition, the health of the soil, which has been so compromised, people growing their own food, or eating it fresh from the farm. And then for some people, no one died is the same. And what we do in my office is that we valuate exactly what type of diet is, right?

Christine Roche: So we actually do different assessments in the blood. We also do functional blood chemistry, which measures a lot of markers in a gut to see what foods is really that they need right now. And then what supplements, those are all customized. We'll help you get to the next level. But I think without the detox system, the neurotransmitter system being in a state of optimal functioning, we find that productivity focus is a key issue in outpatients. I mean, absolutely. So to be really productive, to be at the top of your game, it needs to be that combination. We look at the chart map, I'm a heart map provider about how to deal with the cortisol with the high cortisol, but this is all, it all is integrated together. It all works together as a whole. And that what's so great.

Christine Roche: The other part we haven't talked about weight is that I actually do a testing retesting in order to show people in full color, what happens three months after they started their protocol and six months later, and then all the people pass every year. They say, you know what? I don't want to miss this. I need to know what's going on with me. I've been through a lot this year, whatever has happened, even if I feel great. So we took a group of a hundred patients who felt fantastic. Each one of them discovered something about what was going on. You will not feel it in your body necessarily. You might feel fatigue, brain fog, bloating, you know, lots of burping, abdominal distension, a feeling something isn't right. But many people say I feel so much better. And yet we found a missing piece for them. And now with the viruses going around, we have to to do the best we can do. Now, once the lockdown is loosening is spent the next few months optimizing our immune system at every level, literally looking at what's missing to optimize and make my immune system, the strongest they can be.

Wade Lightheart: Our mission is to end physical suffering, activate what we call biologically optimize health, where all of the ingredients that are required to life flowing and optimal quantities and qualities is our methodology and testing is certainly the way that you can really reduce the time it takes to rebuild yourself into a superstar immune system.

Christine Roche: Yes, yes. That is one of the most important thing is the testing for the optimizing and the testing at all the levels. It's very critical, the test that the immune system and also pests at every level.

Wade Lightheart: So can you tell our listeners where they can find you and get some of these tests and reach out to you? We're going to put a lot of these notes that you refer to in the show notes, you have obviously a beautiful slide. Maybe you have a presentation online that you've demonstrated or something like that. People can kind of go into deep. I want to see that whole presentation myself. So can you share how people can reach you, whether they can find you and how they can connect with you to leverage your services, your wisdom, and your experience.

Christine Roche: Thank you. I have a special offer for all of your listeners and what that is. It's you can just go to www.digestivehealth.Center. So when you go to digestivehealth.center, it will say, bioptimize those special offer. And what that is is a comprehensive digestive analysis of all the microbiome, all the bacteria that the digestion absorption, short chains, everything, including the latest tests with the PCR DNA methodology, the probes from Europe and that is offered with the council patient on the rep side. And for some people that can run that through parasitology or not, we've indicated that they can either test all that or not, but we're going to basically make it simple, just do everything with that one offer, which includes the testing and very significant reduction of the rate. It's all on the rep side and into counsel patient.

Wade Lightheart: So beautiful and so great. Any last words or anything that you'd like to share with our listeners before we goto wrap the session up? I'm definitely gonna have to bring you back.

Christine Roche: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. And I think the most important thing to remember is that help and medicine is moving into a new era. As I'm teaching at the medical school. I'm seeing there's a whole group of functional doctors graduating every year. And what we need is to see healthcare as an integrated process with the microbiome. We're looking early on before the disease manifests. Every European clinic I've been in is using these principles, food as medicine, everything we've talked about, optimizing the different aspects. However, when you test the body before a serious disease happens, or even if you are ill and you identify the root cause what you want to do is get to the root cause, have a customized approach for you. That's very individual. And then also know that all of this is put together with living the best life you can, live the life you love while you're doing that. To me, the motto is always love and live as live love and in what you love.

Wade Lightheart: Well, it obviously shines through with everything you do. I really appreciate you joining us on the Awesome Health show today with BiOptimizers Christine Roche, you are a treasure and I am delighted to send all people, look, get their testing. Look, we're in a war right now. We are in a biological war and you cannot rely on your government agency, your regulation, or you know yourself into a situation where you need acute care. You need to get your immune system boosted up. You need to get your microbiome in order. And guess what? Christine is the lady to give her a call, give her a reach out a text. That's the message ghetto. Get to the digestive health center, get the discount or the special offer with BiOptimizers. Thanks so much for joining us today. It's another great show on the Awesome Health show.

Christine Roche: As I mentioned my phone number one more time, I realized, I said the website, but it's digestive health center and then six, five zero area code eight five six three one five one.

Wade Lightheart: Wow. Even got a phone number. Folks, call that number. Now it'll be inside the show notes in case you missed it. Thank you for joining us on the show today. Really appreciate it, Christine. Thank you so much.
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